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Old 06-19-2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by country_boy View Post
So what makes you think there is any more gender bending than there ever was? It's clearly easier and more socially acceptable now- but how common is it?
Egg-zactly. More are coming out of the closet, but the closet is probably the same size it's always been throughout history. I'm more concerned that 2 of every 3 Americans is overweight, thanks to our "modern diet" of overconsuming calories. That's having a much bigger impact on our society.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MooseMax View Post
Egg-zactly. I'm more concerned that 2 of every 3 Americans is overweight, thanks to our "modern diet" of overconsuming calories. That's having a much bigger impact on our society.
The more estrogen in the diet and otherwise the fatter the person will be......
estrogen is used to pack on pounds
Old 06-19-2017, 01:43 AM
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I don't think it is psychological, since men's sperm count has plumetted in the last few decades.

Endocrine disrupters BPA, shampoos, fire retardant chemicals, estrogenic foods (Soy, Tofu), and I think even obesity disrupts hormone levels. Probably a bunch more stuff I don't know about.

http://www.resourcesforlife.com/docs/item5177
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
I don't think it is psychological, since men's sperm count has plumetted in the last few decades.

...
Interesting claim. What extensive study do you have to point to that concludes that? Must not affect the lower economic classes since they seem to pop out kids like mad.
Old 06-19-2017, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
What extensive study do you have to point to that concludes that?
Are you familiar with PubMed? A simple search there would answer a lot of your questions. (Or you could just talk to your local sperm bank.) It gets old having someone constantly demand someone else do their work for them.

Until you figure it out, here a couple of links to research pertinent to this question:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27099345

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22891399
Old 06-19-2017, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 12vman View Post
The more estrogen in the diet and otherwise the fatter the person will be......
estrogen is used to pack on pounds
And fat produces estrogen, so it becomes a chicken-or-egg cycle.
Old 06-19-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by NY Min View Post
Are you familiar with PubMed? A simple search there would answer a lot of your questions. (Or you could just talk to your local sperm bank.) It gets old having someone constantly demand someone else do their work for them.

Until you figure it out, here a couple of links to research pertinent to this question:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27099345

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22891399
From your first link
Quote:
The association of male age with such a trend (R2= .979) is reported.
and from the second link
Quote:
METHODS:

In a retrospective longitudinal cohort study we analyzed the sperm count and motility of 2182 semen samples provided on a weekly basis by 58 young, healthy, fertile, university-educated, paid donors.
Seems like college (and getting old) is the cause of low sperm count. I suggest males stop going to College if they want kids.

I will happily read studies but when a person makes a claim of unusual nature it is beholden to them to show proof. Not on the skeptic.

You should know this Ms. Minute.

ETA: Rather **** poor studies. Not to mention the concept of sperm bank donation quality as a indication of overall population correlation is highly suspect. Bit like using a Internet Poll.
Old 06-19-2017, 09:12 AM
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No it is caused by the modern evolution of culture.
Old 06-19-2017, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
I will happily read studies but when a person makes a claim of unusual nature it is beholden to them to show proof. Not on the skeptic.

You should know this Ms. Minute.
What I know is that there have been several decades of studies, which anyone who has kept up would be aware of, and it is a PITA to be asked to go do a literature search for someone else.

And yes, the one study cited the effect of age...and of many other things--it was a summary of a lot of literature to date. If you had followed the link to the whole article and actually read it, you would have found this summary on endocrine disrupters:

Quote:
Effect of Endocrine Disruptors

There are numerous reports that identify the role of endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs) for secular changes in sperm count. These EDCs are liable to have adverse effects on individual organisms through primary effects on endocrine systems. These substances, via their estrogenic or anti-androgenic activities, are likely to hinder testicular development in the fetus and the postnatal functions of the testes (Sharpe, 1993). In 1938, estrogenic activity for a range of man-made chemicals was first documented (Dodds & Lawson, 1938). Since the 1960s, it has been known that synthetic compounds such as the chlorinated insecticides methoxychlor and DDT and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) may have estrogenic activity in laboratory animals (Bitman, Cecil, Harris, & Fries, 1968; Tullner, 1961). It has been known for some time that some xenobiotics may act in a similar way to hormones (xenohormones), thereby affecting endocrine regulations. The list of chemical substances with hormonal activity in vitro or in vivo has not stopped growing in the past few decades. In addition to those already mentioned, they include insecticides (lindane), fungicides (vinchlozoline), surfactants (alkylphenols), plastics (bisphenol-A, phthalates), and industrial by-products (dioxins; reviewed in Colborn, Vomsaal, & Soto, 1993; Toppari et al., 1996). Experiments in vivo in laboratory animals have identified that the administration of methoxychlor, octylphenol, butyl phthalate, or dioxin during gestation or lactation causes a significant decrease in sperm production in the adult (Gray, 1982; Mably, Bjerke, Moore, Gendron-Fitzpatrick, & Peterson, 1992; Sharpe, Fisher, Millar, Jobling, & Sumpter, 1995). Several observations support the idea that EDCs may be involved in changes of sperm quality in humans and that these disrupting effects increase with the progression of age. Thus, the trend of declining sperm counts in aging males from 1980 to 2015 may be attributed to the persistently increased exposure of these EDCs.
As for the study on young, healthy, university-educated semen donors, it documented a decline over 15 years. There are many other longitudinal studies of a presumably uniform sampling group that have indicated the same. It documented a change that would require 88% of donors to be rejected for poor sperm versus the 33% rejected earlier if the sperm banks hadn't lowered their criteria--which they were forced to do in order to find enough donors.

Quote:
Over the study period, the average sperm parameters dropped from a concentration of 106 +/- 25 million spermatozoa/ml with 79% +/- 4.3% motility to 68 +/- 14 million/ ml with 66% +/- 4.5% motile sperm (P < 0.0001, P < 0.0001, respectively). The total motile sperm count per ejaculate also decreased, from 66.4 +/- 18.2 million to 48.7 +/- 12 million (P < 0.005).
Sumthin' is definitely goin' on, and it ain't sumthin' good.
Old 06-19-2017, 10:00 AM
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Correlation does not imply causation. Ever.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Min View Post
What I know is that there have been several decades of studies, which anyone who has kept up would be aware of, and it is a PITA to be asked to go do a literature search for someone else.

....


Sumthin' is definitely goin' on, and it ain't sumthin' good.
Why would I keep up with these studies? Though now that I have become aware of them they are poorly done. I am afraid I just have to conclude that cell phones are the cause of gender bending.

I remain unimpressed. No I will go further. There is a lot of nonsense being put out by supposedly educated people. Maybe it is education that is turning people queer and sterile.
Old 06-19-2017, 05:48 PM
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You ALL really need to chill.

First of all; whether you believe Biblical or Evolutionary: the chicken came first. God did not fill the land, skies and seas with eggs, he filled them with the beasts, birds and fishes. You can not have a chicken egg until you have a chicken to lay it. Two somethings mated and the result was a chicken-like critter. Two of these chicken-like critters mated together and a chicken was born. Then and only then was a chicken egg laid! Period. Class dismissed.


Nature or Nurture? It is an old question. Guess what? The answer is, yes; all of the above. It is both nature and nurture. We are experiencing a major rise in "deviant" behavior, period. No "ifs, ands or buts" about it. Readily available foods are wacked. Medicine is wacked. Schooling is wacked. "Normal" is wacked. We have generations (yes, plural) of breeding adults who have never dug a ditch, cut firewood, gotten into a fight etc. Body chemistry is out of wack, but so is societal mores. It all comes together to cause a big mess.

Ask yourselves this; of what true value is wholesome, homegrown/wholegrain/organic/free-range/non-gmo food if the person eating it is not living the same lifestyle? I do not care what foods you are eating, if you do not have a physically active lifestyle you will have health issues. If you do not have a mentally active lifestyle you will have mental issues. Look around you. I do not need a "study" to explain this to me. Do you? If you need a "study" to explain to you something "not good" is going on right now or you insist someone else point you to a study to "prove" something "not good" is going on right now, you have more important things to worry about than getting into an argument on the internet.

Or maybe you don't.

Common sense should tell you: if you mess with the way the body's chemistry works (whether through food, meds, environment etel), you are going to get a messed up reaction from the body. Yes, many previous cultures tolerated (some may have even encouraged) "gender-bending". That does not make it normal. I had an argument with some kids when dropping off my daughter to college. These morons were exclaiming how 20-25% of the population is gay. I told them: "Not possible. If 20-25% of the population were non-breeders, we would not have 7 billion people on this planet right now. The math does not add up and numbers cannot lie. Statistics can, though. Get with your Genetics 101 instructor and do the math. Maybe 1-2% of the population. The rest of you idiots just seem to think it is cool. In ten years you will be married to a member of the opposite sex and popping out the babies." The look on their faces was AWESOME!!! My daughter says: "Thanks, Dad. Now everyone knows who I am." "No problem, sweetie. That is what Daddy is here for."
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestBeekeeper View Post
Could it be that our diet has evolved to cause all of this 'gender-bending' in our society?

Our culture is going through a lot of struggle as we shape cultural norms to conform to this changed reality.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...s-puberty.aspx

We had been told that this is due to the introduction of soy into the American diet. This article discusses the effects of estrogen-mimicking, “gender-bending” chemicals [phthalates, parabens, PFOA, bisphenol-A (BPA)] ..."
Could be, beside that our food is devoid of nutrients. I haven't had a good peach in over a decade.
Old 06-20-2017, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Salt-N-Pepper View Post
Correlation does not imply causation. Ever.
Nope, but when you do a bunch of studies of feeding animals endocrine disrupters, and the males' sperm counts repeatedly go to hell, that's a bit more than just correlation.

Now, how much this has to do with the increasing popularity of young folks declaring themselves gender queer is another issue. Cultural influences are undoubtedly part of that. OTOH, our sex is determined by hormones, so if you start messing with those, it stands to reason you're going to produce some abnormalities in the male/female thing. It's documented that you get some interesting results when you expose a fetus to abnormal hormone levels.
Old 06-20-2017, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by slackercruster View Post
Could be, beside that our food is devoid of nutrients. I haven't had a good peach in over a decade.
And you probably won't in the future unless you grow your own or can visit an orchard. Fully ripe stone fruits are too fragile to ship well, so all that's available to buy away from the tree is fruit that was picked green and tasteless and gas-ripened.
Old 06-20-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by NY Min View Post
Nope, but when you do a bunch of studies of feeding animals endocrine disrupters, and the males' sperm counts repeatedly go to hell, that's a bit more than just correlation.
Not necessarily so. Both might be caused by a third, unknown factor. Right now all we have are theories.
Old 06-20-2017, 09:36 AM
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Monsanto Monsanto Monsanto - sorry channeling Alex Jones for a minute there

I doubt it's diet
Old 06-20-2017, 09:51 AM
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Not necessarily so. Both might be caused by a third, unknown factor.
Sure. If you expose a bunch of pregnant women to diethylstilbesterol, and you get an abnormally large number of their female offspring with vaginal cancer and uterine malformations causing fertility and miscarriage problems and an abnormally large number of their male offspring with genital deformities or who develop epididymal cysts, it could be some third, unknown factor. All you have again is a theory and some statistics. But my money would be on the DES.
Old 06-20-2017, 01:48 PM
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Not necessarily so. Both might be caused by a third, unknown factor. Right now all we have are theories.
It's not up in the air what effects estrogen has on the human body I hate to tell you that

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Old 06-20-2017, 09:48 PM
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It's not up in the air what effects estrogen has on the human body I hate to tell you that

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In large doses, yes. In low doses, such as soy products and the slight hormone residue in beef, no, we have barely scratched the surface. I am not even sure they are testing for the effects hormone residue in beef are having: I am SURE the American Beef Council is not paying for this to be done!!!!!!!!!!!!
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