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Home defense

15K views 79 replies 50 participants last post by  NYsurvivalist 
#1 ·
I have been reading a lot on here about shotguns and yet to find anyone who is talking about what shot to use in a home defense situation. I have several friends who have been in law enforcement for well over 20 years, and all agree that buck shot is not good inside of houses. They all claim that with buckshot you can have so much collateral damage ( shooting through a wall and hitting a loved one) that it is a bad choice. Most say 7.5 shot is great it will not go through a wall and if it does it looses so much speed it is not going to blow soomeone away!
 
#4 ·
Check this out:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

You really can't go wrong with #00 IMHO. The link above recommends #1 buck since their studies show it actually produces more wound trauma than #00.

As far as wall penetration is concerned, if it can't penetrate a wall it can't penetrate a BG.

The problem is finding #1 buck on the shelves in a store. #00 is everywhere.

Bird shot isn't worth looking at.
 
#10 ·
Same rule applies to shotguns as with any other firearm... Know your target AND what is beyond it. It is perfectly safe to blast that zombie with #1 Buckshot or 00 Buck in your house.. or at least as safe as shooting him with any decent handgun ammo. Just know what is behind him before you shoot.
and PRACTICE.. shotguns take practice just the same as your handgun. Believe it or not, you can miss with it from across the room... especially on a moving target. Set up some two-liter bottles full of water hanging from ropes.. get'em swinging and see how quickly you can hit them..and how often you miss.
 
#18 ·
As a kid, I had a buddy that shot a possum at close range with bird shot. Just to keep from being too graphic I will say that it did a number on that critter and was absolutely lethal. Anyway, I can't add much to the discussion as far as what load is best for home defense, but you can trust me, you do not want to be on the receiving end of bird shot at close range.
 
#19 ·
Firstly, define bird shot?

Is it #9 (.080/877 oz.) or is it #6 (.110/337 oz) or is it #2 (.150/130 oz) or is it #BB (.177/46.5 oz)...What about #T (.200/28.3 oz) or #F (.220/21.1 oz)...#4 buck is only .240 and 20.3 pellets to the ounce...#2 buck--what the FBI recommends is .270 and 12.5 pellets to the oz...

The problem with smaller shot is that the individual pellet doesn't have sufficient mass to penetrate deeply because, remember, that shot is in a string not a solid lump and the pellets will hit at different times from first to last which means you have to have sufficient mass in that one pellet to go deep enough to hit a vital organ, artery or cause massive shock to the system.

Hit them with a load of #2 or #BB at 10 yards they're stopped and that's all the law allows you do do--stop any further threat...If the miscreant happens to die, so what.

#BBB (.190/43.6 oz), #T, #TT (.210/21.5 oz) and #F are considered transitional shot--between bird and buck and if you can find them they'll work just as well as larger buck will.

My favourite load is 7/8 oz of #T and 3/8 oz of #BB bird (1¼ oz) over 3½ drams of powder...or the same mix of #F and #2 bird...You can always add some #BB to your #000 buck as filler.
 
#21 ·
I have several friends who have been in law enforcement for well over 20 years, and all agree that buck shot is not good inside of houses. They all claim that with buckshot you can have so much collateral damage ( shooting through a wall and hitting a loved one) that it is a bad choice.
get a house with plaster walls. to go through one of my bedroom walls in to the hall way, a round has to pass through aboug five inched of plaster, two layers of lath, adn if i am luckey, a full 2' of wood.
 
#26 ·
Not trying to bash your friends or anything but sometimes you will find a tendency for law enforcement to give advice to civilians that lowers their power level of defending against a threat. Maybe it is because they are thinking that they might have to respond to a dark house with a scared civilian who is not trained and probably has not picked up that weapon since they bought it. Do I want you firing bird shot at me or buck shot? Hmmmm.
 
#30 ·
Comes down to aim and knowing what's behind your target. Ultimately, if you have a loved one behind the bad guy you've already got a problem. But rather than dismiss the merits of 00-buck for HD, I think it calls for careful study of your own living arrangements, space, etc. where are safe spots to shoot from and where are bad spots. Sort of like a game of chess, and YOU have the advantage because you know the layout of the board.
 
#32 ·
Generally you'll find people recommending 00 buck shot because it penetrates enough living tissue to stop a threat. Bird shot will make an ugly mess and ruin someone's day but it doesn't penetrate far enough through living tissue to reliably stop a threat.

The truth is that there are no guarantees that come with any ammo for conventional home defense/self defense firearms. Humans have survived getting shot point blank in the face with 12 gauge 00 buck shot. People get shot in the head with a handgun or rifle and survive with out permanent disability. Not often but it happens often enough to be found easily with a Google or Google Scholar search.

Use 00 buck shot, always be aware of what is behind your target, don't shoot unless you have a safe backstop (yes, sometimes you have to take one because you don't want to shoot into the neighbor's nursery), get training, get more training, learn the laws of self defense in your area and practice.

Oh yeah, one more thing. We don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat. Once the bad guy is no longer a threat we stop shooting.
 
#62 ·
...Oh yeah, one more thing. We don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat. Once the bad guy is no longer a threat we stop shooting.
...The best way to stop a threat, is to kill them.

If I have to resort to shooting someone, they are trying to kill me, or one of my loved ones. I will stop the threat, permanetly. I shoot to kill.
...
And you wind up in gaol charged with murder!...
As opposed to a gaol for an Assault with a deadly weapon charge?

I never said walk up to them if they are down and finnish them off. My point is to shoot to kill. If they fall and don't die, OK fine. Long as they aren't still shooting, job done....

I give lectures on firearms law, and aside from being an attorney, I'm an NRA certified instructor. In the NRA course, we can't use the word, "weapon". But my Virginia "lethal force" seminar isn't an NRA course, so I can say whatever makes sense in Virginia. And what I tell people surprises them, because I start out with the comment that there's exactly one reason to have a handgun, and that's to kill, to take the life of another human being. It's a horrible prospect, and anyone who isn't willing to do exactly that should not be in possession of a handgun - it will probably get them killed.

There are very limited situations in which it is appropriate to take a gun out and kill someone with it. And you have to know what the rules are where you live. That's the point of my seminar, but it takes about three hours for me to explain it.

But one important point is that if you do not have a legitimate reason to kill, don't even think about the gun; don't touch it, don't get it out, and don't make any reference to it. Don't threaten, don't "brandish", don't coerce, don't intimidate. Unlike the movies, getting a handgun out and pointing it at someone in order to make them obey is likely to get you shot or arrested for assault with a deadly weapon.

If you reasonably believe, based on objective facts, that you or an innocent third party is faced with the threat of imminent serious bodily injury, then the use of deadly force is excusable (in Virginia). Stopping a serious felony (rape, robbery, arson, burglary, and murder) by the use of deadly force is excusable homicide (in Virginia). But pulling a gun out and telling someone to stay back, and possibly to get out of your house, may be assault with a deadly weapon, and showing someone a gun, even one still in its holster, with the intent of intimidating them in order to coerce behavior ("Don't come any closer, I've got a gun.") is "brandishing a firearm."

If you have a good reason to take a human life, shoot to kill (in Virginia). If you do not, don't even think about the gun (I think that's true everywhere).

It would be a good idea to find a "gun friendly" lawyer in your area who does defensive litigation, and get him to be "your lawyer". Don't wait until you're in the pokey to start thinking about finding a good lawyer - you won't, and what you get may well get you sent "down the river" - lawyers, like everyone else, come in three flavors: some are really good, some are really bad, and most are average. Use the time you've got to find one who's "really good" and who will be understanding about your preparations for the use of deadly force.
 
#33 ·
I guess it depends on what your goals are.

Just about any shot coming out of a 12 gauge COULD be used for home defense.

Will bird shot be effective? Maybe. I wouldn't want to get shot with it.

Will buckshot be effective? Yeah. I really wouldn't want to get shot with it.

Slug? Yes. I really, really wouldn't want to get shot with that!

If your goal is to make the bad guy run away screaming, with a small chance of killing them, birdshot. You do run the risk of really ****ing someone off though.

If you want to have a good chance at killing them, buckshot.

If you really want to kill them, slug.

Hope that helps.
 
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