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Crossbows in active military/police use

96K views 79 replies 32 participants last post by  groothewanderer 
#1 ·
Chinese traffic police (Chongqing);




Chinese military (anti-terrorism drill in Yinchuan, capital of northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region);




Chinese SWAT (Hei Long Jiang province);








China is the emerging power and they seem to still like their crossbows. Is that just cultural or will it spread? Do crossbows already exist elsewhere in State forces, somewhere Western? Aside from silence, what are the advantages or disadvantages? One source describes that the ruling rural PLA forces do not want guns in the hands of locals or police and so this has been a compromise in some areas. Anyway, I found the whole topic sort of whack so made this thread :eek:
 
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#2 ·
They may like their crossbows, but they are really only effective when you have a sheep-like unarmed populous, a huge army and policeforce that you must arm for cheap, and thousands of armored main battle tanks at the ready to roll over your citizens if they get a 2x4 with a nail in it, and overrun your crossbowmen.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I think your way off in the assumption that the crossbows are being supplied because the army are short on Ak47s. At least I get that impression of your view, as you say the army are badly armed and the crossbow men would be overrun by people with nails through planks. The plank weilders would be shot dead with AKs before the tanks rolled. It would make sense that the police would all be given crossbows (although this is only happening in one traffic division of one province from what I know) because the army doesn't want a strong police force. But most police are carrying pistols in other provinces. The Ak has been the standard carry in the Chinese armed forced for decades too. The anti terror team and SWAT branches are going to be the most well equipped of all the Chinese army, yet despite the foot soldiers carrying AKs they are giving crossbows to certain special units. I doubt somehow it's due to economics!

I think for distance, accuracy and stopping power, a suppressed sniper rifle is superior to a crossbow in most applications I can imagine.
Good point the active western equivilant is a silenced rifle. But I think the Chinese can afford some supressors too, especially for their special units. Crossbows can be effective to impressive distances (those I understand are normal over ironsights with an AK at max, like 100m), they have no recoil and also use a munition which can be modified to weigh significantly more than the heaviest bullets (although the range for engagement would be reduced thus). Not to mention that explosive devices can be attached to crossbows, whereas I hear of no supressed M203 grenade launchers (or are there?) Do supressed rifles still give off a muzzle flash also? The last person I'd want to be in the 2nd picture would be the guy with the crossbow. Nevertheless the fact the crossbow is a mixed element with these firearms demonstrates some use. Perhaps the desired effect is a psychological one, one particular to China more than elsewhere.
 
#3 ·
Don't discount the stealth ability of these crossbows.
For example, in Iraq or elsewhere, if your force was advancing from building to building and didn't want the enemy to know exactly where you are, you can take out their more perephery defenses (more lightly defended outlying positions), to allow your main force to move in to the heart of where the enemy is stationed without alerting them. Crossbows would be ideal for this because of their quietness and stealthiness.
There are many tactical situations that lend itself to a silent, quick and yet deadly assault that the crossbow and other such weapons can accomplish.
 
#9 ·
OK.
Fact time here.
Arrows are ineffective in most sentry removal situations.
They rely mostly on blood loss to do their thing and the last thing you want in a stealth situation is a bleeding sentry screaming his lungs out and triggering his weapon.
Sorry, crossbows are really cool and super wicked looking but strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material.
Please don't let's talk about' but if you hit 'em in the head'........
A silenced firearm would be the urban advancement tool if you were not willing or able to get close enough to use a 3 lb cross peen hammer or a Ka-Bar.
 
#10 ·
OK.
Fact time here.
Sorry, crossbows are really cool and super wicked looking but strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material.



Well I was going to keep relinking them but sod it, you saw the images Buck. Fact time; crossbows are not strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material. They were deadly weapons and remain deadly weapons. They are employed by the most industrially rich nation on earth, a nation which the US owes big time to and which will eventually crown it. You just like recoil and overkill, which ain't all that surprising buddy.
 
#12 ·
I was brought up in a military school, learning each and every thursday what the teachers (TA reservists mostly) had to say. I was packed off to bootcamp on 3 summers too. I was firing live rounds out of machine guns and performing blank firing ops when you were graffiteeing the toilets and smoking cigs. Somehow I've finally seen my arse with "military experience". I got what I needed and wouldn't want to sell my conscience voluntarily thereafter. Oh this is a big comeback for me calling you a trendy christian. I remember why you have an axe to grind :D: There's your derail, enjoy :rolleyes:

PS, what are you talking about propaganda photos? I read about the traffic story years ago, the other ones are newer. But they are true. Did you watch the video? It is happening. I'd love to see some reasoning from you.
 
#15 ·
If my choice is a .30cal fired from a semi-auto rifle and a crossbow. No matter how advanced to kill someone quick I'll take a rifle. I think a bow or a crossbow can be used fro a quick kill am I going to spend the years that would take to get good enough and strong enough to kill a quickly a guy with a one no. I figure it's still that they are short on money or supplies haven't come in and they are practicing with them till there rifles show up. Or worse they know something that we don't know about how the last war will be fought. :D:

I believe a bows/crossbows is an affective killing weapon. Ninja, Samurai, Mongols warrior and the English Long Bow. Now the point has to be made all of these guys lived and breathed the weapon that was their life pure and simple. I have other concerns in my life I don't have time to practice as much as they did. So I use a gun to offset the lack of practice and really the bow and crossbow has as the club been replaced by the gun. Remember at one point the club with a rock tied to it was the top level then replaced by the bow, guns have replaced the bow and the old evolve or die. I'd use a bow for hunting small/large game and save my rifle rounds for "problems" when I need a quick kill. Now if they ever take my guns away a Bow at 60 LBS draw weight sounds better to me then a club with a rock tied to it. :):thumb:
 
#19 ·
OK guys,

It's been fun but I'm personally interested in WHY the CHICOM police special units might be issuing crossbows.

What I am not interested in is having to trawl through a couple of pages of a pissing contest.

Although I have read with interest some great on-topic posts from both of you in the past (which I have learned from), you both need to show some professionalism in posting and take it to PM or email.
 
#20 ·
OK.
Fact time here.
Arrows are ineffective in most sentry removal situations.
They rely mostly on blood loss to do their thing and the last thing you want in a stealth situation is a bleeding sentry screaming his lungs out and triggering his weapon.
Sorry, crossbows are really cool and super wicked looking but strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material.
Please don't let's talk about' but if you hit 'em in the head'.....
I would think that generally,the only visible part of a senrty in a guard tower or on the deck of a ship ,would be his head and upper torso(lungs and heart)and would be a fairly simple target for a weapons expert like a N. SEAL w/ a crossbow. I'm sure ,through out (special forces)history ,that this tactic has been used in certain covert missions. Just my opinion.
 
#22 ·
Possible.
Though SEALS have some latitude regarding weapons selection were you to be said SEAL would you not rather have a suppressed firearm for the job?
Cross bows are very accurate under most circumstances but there is no followup shot in event of a miss or less than incapacitating shot.
Yes a head shot would likely bring said guard down right now.
That is most often going to stop the central nervous system.
A chest shot not severing the spinal nerve won't render one immediately incapacitated.
That's the stuff of movies.

We could pare this down to the point where anything would work, but look at the crossbow.
Bulky.
Slow.
You get one quick shot and you are balls in hand if you miss.

Arrexian talks about using them but fails to mention things like the strings bypassing the bolts.
Strings breaking after a few shots now and then.
The occasional wild flier shots that occur even with excellent bolts made by Bear or Barnett like when the fletching strips off.
A firearm is a far more consistent choice.
Like I said, this is some weird propaganda.

Edit in>
All this talk of UDT like they are all Superman......did you see what Noriega's men did to them at the airport?
SEALS are some bad asses, but bad asses screw up and bleed too.
 
#24 ·
Nah, hang around Rutger, we're at the cliffhanger.

For those who are just tuning in, so far our good Brother Buck has proven that he can **** the highest - a personal best by the way.

Will arrexian try to beat Buck's unbeatable pissing record or will he just bow out and let our Bro have the deep personal satisfaction of having won an argument on the internet with someone he's never likely to meet? Time will tell folks, but rest assured, this contest is not yet over.

Stay tuned to the WANKR Survivalist TV Network CHICOM Crossbow Channel for more of the same.

:thumb:
 
#26 ·
OK you say there is a broadhead, insinuating suitable for human heart shots that has a 4 inch cut.
You show a picture.
The rest of the story....nice try.
That is a head designed to hit a bird in the neck.
Not a medium mammal in the chest.
You may find sternum and ribs to thwart your fantasy.
Ohh that's right.
Now it's not actaully have and currently use; it's IF they modify this.
If they made it.
If Santa was real.
Were we not talking about thing currently in use?
In any case simply obliterating the heart is not any guarantee of instant incapacity.
Sorry.
Only a suitable head shot or other CNS disruption does that even remotely reliably.
Get over it and quit dreaming.
I'm over the cyanide BS. It simply doesn't act the way you say....look at my PM.

You are likely the only one here who refuses to read my statements about mechanical heads.
Cable shmable....cable =compound--- string= recurve....BFD (FYI). Stop nit picking already.
 
#27 ·
If you had to check that was for turkeys and were unable to read that it was for turkeys in my post, so be it. I knew straight off. The given picture does not show an extendable broadhead. Below it I showed extendable broadheads. Again, if that design were used on an extendable broadhead, it would be airborne with a half inch to inch most diameter, expanding only on contact. Where's the dream here? It was a debate about the feasibilities, possibilites, advantages and disadvantages. Now I've seen and used some big extendable broadheads, alright not of that particular design, but your experience (of which I am confused, one time you say you have crossbows, then you only have a compound bow, then you have crossbows on PM etc, but find them scary all the same) is just maybe perhaps not as great as mine. Anyhow, this is a place for sharing ideas and experiences. Sorry, get over it :rolleyes:
 
#28 ·
You said a "spike" with the diameter of a heart existed speaking in context of medium size mammals.....you show us a fixed broadhead designed to be aimed at a turkeys neck. Apples and oranges.
You also claim there is some magical crumple head that at 220 ft lbs will simply stop contained in a human body....no link yet....got one?
Please quote where I said I did NOT own a crossbow.

Come up with the link to that Volvo crumple zone jazz or admit you made it all up.
 
#29 ·
There is a spike on the front of that model right there, but quite frankly maybe you need to google some broadheads. I know which one I mean here, the one I've fiddled with in shop and want to get next. The extendable features are what I am using as an example of a modern tech and within the context of physics to try and explain this subject to you. Besides, I said it should be made fit for a 200ft lber, we are not talking a little turkey executioner crossbow here. As for crumple, I am not sure if you are aware but not all broadheads come served in stainless steel. There are many kinds of metal, softer ones and when those hit hard bone guess what the right word in physics is to describe the deformation of their shape? Yes, crumple. Shafts also splinter on bone. I feel I'm teaching you a lot. Again the weight and distance (as well as circumference which is demonstrated to an extreme in the turkey pic) are what count. This entire argument stems from my pointing to the advantage of crossbows having a personalisable and modifiable munition - one which can be designed to deliver a much more devastating blow in the modern era. I would further suggest that if States employ them, then this tech will continue to improve as their researching bucks fund it and their training tests its boundaries within the gun era. You haven't been able to accept at any point this rationale because you have a sterotypical view on me and can not stand what was said on the thread in which you once again paraded as a know it all, dissing an adventurous man as stupid. Really that thread should be re-opened so your trollism could be contained.
 
#32 ·
Someone may have already stated this, so I'm sorry of I'm wasting anyone's time. Hit someone with a crossbow bolt, unless it's an instant kill, they're gonna be screaming for a bit. The further you are, the harder it's gonna be to ensure a one shot, instant kill with one. It's gonna be added weight, in addition to your assault rifle, ammo, kit. No one with any miles under a ruck, really wants added weight. In my opinion, they have a place, but time, place and circumstance dictate everything. If you have the option of a surpressed anything, and take a crossbow instead, you a freaking idiot,and deserve whatever bad things happen to you. This thread would probably be of more use, thinking in terms of SHTF scenario, civilians, rebels, blah, blah, blah, against a more well equiped force. They have their place, but it's a highly limited one. Using propaganda photos taken to make the participants seem way more cool, awesome,and badass than they really are, might not be the right tactic to winning the argument. For what it's worth.
 
#33 ·
The "propaganda" pictures are from active military/police units using crossbows, one of them from a force which no longer uses them. Others have pointed out periods/forces which used them by their general knowledge. The pics are taken from website reports online. What else can be done? I know of no crossbow weilding military or police myself, nobody here is likely to. But they were used and still are, fact. The SHTF aspect wasn't what concerned me - this was never an "argument" of whether it would be better vs firearms post shtf or in contemporary battle (although some cowboy google warriors would like to shape it that way because their assault rifle round has a greater diameter than their penis). It is rather a thread to establish which forces and when used them and what if any are the advantages and what are the drawbacks. That has been well and truly achieved, with much bitching and snidy comments like yours along the way :thumb:
 
#36 ·
Arrexian,

I served in the US Army (Rangers), and yes, some militaries do use cross bows for Special Operations application. They were very effective when we used them, and at a good distance, 70 to 120 yards (Sorry I'm slow with metric conversion). Like all tools, each one was designed for a specific purpose.
As for Law Enforcement agency use, I've been in State Law Enforcement (State Trooper)for 20 years in the USA, I spent 8 years on our Departments tactical team, to my knowledge, I don't know of any Law Enforcement Agency in the USA that uses cross bows.

Hope this has been of help.

Stay Alert, Stay Safe and God Bless

Ranger978
 
#37 ·
Unbelievable. So the Chinese use american hunting crossbows...lmao!!! You'd have to be pretty challenged to believe that. I don't know where those photos came from but they're not real.

There is absolutely no tactical advantage to a crossbow. They are not quiet. And for precision accuracy their range is limited to 50 yards or so.

Only in a make believe land where grownsups who have no military experience like to play like children.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Unbelievable. So the Chinese use american hunting crossbows...lmao!!! You'd have to be pretty challenged to believe that. I don't know where those photos came from but they're not real.
Wait.. what do you mean by not "real"? Photshopped? It was really done in the californian desert or something, with american chinese actors? That it's CGI? The photos are just from news sources, go through their links for the information that comes with them then you will "know" where they came from. Then try the youtube video in the first post, which is a recording of a Chinese news agency reporting on them. What do I see? I see military guys training with crossbows, in China, being reported upon by a Chinese news agency. Doesn't look like CGI to me. Several sources I found when I threaded this topic were dated differently. But I suppose it's all a big elaborate hoax on my part, in association with the Chinese government.
They are not quiet. And for precision accuracy their range is limited to 50 yards or so.
This is the closest you came in your posts to standing back and commenting on adv/disadv and you were just plain incorrect. You clearly have nil experience with crossbows, to make a sweeping comment that "their" accuracy is limited to "50 yards or so". Quite moronic. I fire accurate at 80 yards and there are more powerful crossbows than mine. Not to mention that your efficiency with a rifle at 50 yards could be naff compared to mine with a crossbow (it's the handler that counts.) Not that being limited to 50 yards would reduce some of the said possible advantages of a crossbow anyhow. And as for suggesting crossbows are "not quiet".. are you on planet earth? Have you ever shot a crossbow even once? I would surmise a definate no after that comment.
Only in a make believe land where grownsups who have no military experience like to play like children.
Your response had zero information, just rhetorical jibes and you have insulted most posters on this thread with their adherance to other militaries having used crossbows recently and possible uses. It's in make believe land.. right. What is, exactly? Posting some news and video links and then asking about other States, the experience of and then possible adv/disadv? I've thanked those with the opinion it has no place, when those opinions were delivered without slack jawed side servings. You don't like that your nation is bending over for China now and will in the future and so your patriotism is frothing, rather than logic. Good luck with that :rofl::rofl::rofl: Clearly facts so far state that in China it is not fantasy land and elsewhere it has not been also (Indo China/India). What about the fella's well balanced opinion above who served in the US Rangers? You don't actually believe in anything you are writing here, you just want to get personal. But I find that really quite funny, boyo, so carry on in your own pathetic time :D

...lol...first photo armed with a field point...target point; second photo he's aiming without a bolt, aiming a "hoyt" at that....
Nobody ever said the bolts in the pictures were broadheads, that followed in the discussion of possible advantages. And all these pictures are taken training. Another possible reason could be that adhered to several times on this thread; the objective isn't to kill but less than lethal. As for the sticking point of an American crossbow in one of the pics.. are you really so uninformed of military affairs? Guns, tanks, planes and ship designs are inter-traded. Some of America's recent enemies were supplied hi-tech US arms just years before conflict. States do not give a hoot where their arms were made, just that they are the right cost, efficienct, in availability and of application. Nothing strange about the Chinese using a US designed crossbow, any more strange than their gunpowder firearms being designed elsewhere.
 
#40 ·
The crossbows look bad ass. Does one need in any other reason? : )

Not sure if this has been mentioned (I skipped the bickering back and forth), but could a crossbow be more useful in a urban/crowded area becauses of less ricocheting? I know there is a tendency toward non-lethal weaponry like beanbag guns and tazers in America. But those could possibly be thwarfted by heavy padding. A crossbow, I'm guessing, could pinpoint a "armored" person without having to worry about the bullet going astray. Or perhaps a non-lethal tip could be added to the arrow?

Also, is it possible to attach a small rope or cable to the bolt for climbing?
 
#41 ·
Yes....photoshopped. Training? wouldn't have a bolt at all. And yes, the thought of them using second rate hunting equipment for tactical purposes is an utter joke. No need for me to debunk your ludicrous childlike fantasies because there is no basis to debunk. Your posts demonstrate that you have no military credibility.

 
#42 · (Edited)
Yes....photoshopped.
You sir a fool. If these pictures are so perfectly photoshopped, then explain the differently sourced news stories with them and then explain the frame by frame photoshopped chinese news report on them. I am awaiting that. I can't actually fathom that you are suggesting this is an entirely photoshopped and acted out thing, somewhere else. Lay off the drugs.

Training? wouldn't have a bolt at all.
One doesn't have a bolt at all (the SWAT training picture) just like you said in your last froth . The one with a bolt is on traffic duty in the area in which they are employed because the PLA does not want guns in the hands of police (check the story perhaps?).
No need for me to debunk your ludicrous childlike fantasies because there is no basis to debunk. Your posts demonstrate that you have no military credibility.
You tried to debunk them and have failed however, in a very childlike manner I might add. No basis? How about the pictures, stories and news agency video? Those are 100% of the basis. Well, more like 90% as the other 10% would be the evidence other forces have used them too. Were the news just winding up China that day? Are people just imagining traffic cops? What have you given in return to these evidence? Zero. Nil. Oh wait you said all crossbows are limited to 50 yards and not considered a quiet weapon... LOL. You have no credibility therefore. Just a provocative troll.
 
#43 ·
summer camp warrior...lol....what an idiot! On the one hand you talk about their deadliness, on the other, they're less than lethal.

The effective range of a crossbow is 50 yards or less for a number of reasons. Ranging (you think you'd have time to implement a range finder in a combat situation?!.....10 yards difference is nothing in the ranging of an assualt rifle, but is the difference in or miss with a crossbow), bolt speed (targets don't stand there and wait for impact), among other reasons. Why do you think their effective range for hunting is 40 yards or less?

Crossbows are not quiet. I have plenty of experience with them. Stand 100 yards away and you will here a loud THHHWAAAACK.

Crowsbows require too much horizontal clearance, are cumbersome, and cannot be employed effectively from a covered position.

I cannot pop off rounds faster with my muzzleloader. I could squeeze of a full mag with an m4 before you could get off 2 bolts with a crossbow. In combat, you get the element of surprise for exactly one round. That goes for a crossbow as well. You think you can rely on them for additional stealth? Anybody who argue that clearly has no military experience. Slling a bolt with a crossbow, then standby for a world of hurt.

Any advangtage one might seek to gain through use of a crossbow, there are dozens of exponentially more effective means of getting. It's just a laughable topic. Must of got knocked on the head good during your summer camp training....lol

Now go toss a few more lightening bolts!
 
#44 ·
summer camp warrior...lol....what an idiot! On the one hand you talk about their deadliness, on the other, they're less than lethal.
Again you are sticking to the derail about ____ experience (military), ranting about my military credibility. At least I'm not full of sh!t on my past. Attempt to stay on topic and not see this story as being setup fantasy and hoaxed by me then I am ready to accept all your thoughts on the issue. Now I've talked about deadliness and been in accord with those suggesting less than lethal. In the traffic cop sense, given that they are not allowed gunpowder weapons in Chongqing province, the less than lethal has made sense since the first post. Question anything then question my crossbow experience. I'm afraid military experience (which I have half a life of) is irrelevant. Getting a few rounds through your jeep wouldn't make you know anymore about chinese forces using crossbows either. That is knowitallism and I'm sorry but getting pumped with uncle sam drugs doesnt qualify for that title.
The effective range of a crossbow is 50 yards or less for a number of reasons. Ranging (you think you'd have time to implement a range finder in a combat situation?!.....10 yards difference is nothing in the ranging of an assualt rifle, but is the difference in or miss with a crossbow), bolt speed (targets don't stand there and wait for impact), among other reasons. Why do you think their effective range for hunting is 40 yards or less?
Nice points, but the fact that crossbows are in active police/military use continues. Your points are well thought out but that doesn't mean there was never a basis for my raising it here and questioning it you embittered chimp.
Crossbows are not quiet. I have plenty of experience with them. Stand 100 yards away and you will here a loud THHHWAAAACK.
That would depend on the type of crossbow. If your thwack is the sound of it hitting a tree, then yes it is loud. If you are refering to discharging the weapon then it is down to the type of crossbow. Moreover a silencer supresses a rifle, it doesnt make it a whole different weapon. I've heard a lot of silenced rifles at gunclubs and they make a "quiet" BANG.. Not to mention a muzzleflash at night that a crossbow will not make.
Crowsbows require too much horizontal clearance, are cumbersome, and cannot be employed effectively from a covered position.
If you were being covered by those other team members with assault rifles that wouldn't be an issue. But yes good points. Still, the reality is there. Why are you so bitter with me? Could you only focus on the original derail about my military experience? It was nothing to do with that at any point. I would suggest I have a $h!t side more crossbow experience than you while we are on it.
I cannot pop off rounds faster with my muzzleloader.
Your point?
I could squeeze of a full mag with an m4 before you could get off 2 bolts with a crossbow.
Typical and I knew it. You are looking at a battle between you and me. It's not about that kid. It's about State forces using crossbows on particular units, combined with firearms.
In combat, you get the element of surprise for exactly one round. That goes for a crossbow as well.
True and that first surprise shot would come from a crossbow in this context, continuing the surprise factor for remaining targets.
You think you can rely on them for additional stealth? Anybody who argue that clearly has no military experience. Slling a bolt with a crossbow, then standby for a world of hurt.
I do not think that they can be relied on for additional stealth by choice. The world's most populous and powerful nation state does, within certain circumstances, clearly. They have a few millenia more military experience than the US btw. That's just a guess on my part on the military usage video though - the context of their usage in Chongqing is different.
Chongqing
Any advangtage one might seek to gain through use of a crossbow, there are dozens of exponentially more effective means of getting. It's just a laughable topic. Must of got knocked on the head good during your summer camp training....lol
Okay well put those opinions on a piece of paper and send them to the Chinese government. You frothed so severely throughout this thread you missed the multiple times I said that silenced firearms were better. I've tried to be open in this topic to all sides however, suggesting things here and there. Just trying my best to understand the reality of this situation in China. BTW I suggest you have no combat experience, but enjoy blasting hundreds of rounds into lakes/quarries and then sitting back like a tough guy know it all online. Moron. I've come to the topic neutral, it's a topic existing on several other boards too. Just go beat off or something. I can't be spending any longer at least this evening on the thread. I'm off and out, writh in pleasure you little turd.
 
#47 ·
flyboy1304,
Perhaps the military has chosen not to use them today, as you say, but the following first hand accounts from this thread should be respected:
"Ranger978:
I served in the US Army (Rangers), and yes, some militaries do use cross bows for Special Operations application. They were very effective when we used them, and at a good distance, 70 to 120 yards (Sorry I'm slow with metric conversion). Like all tools, each one was designed for a specific purpose."

"Kalifornia Guy:
1945-1975
Crossbows employed by Montagnard peoples and US special forces during Vietnam conflict. May not be as affective, but I'm sure many NVA/VC's were killed in this fashion."

The above are first hand accounts of irrefutable and effective uses of the crossbow.
 
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