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Old 05-19-2017, 10:08 AM
leadcounsel leadcounsel is offline
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Originally Posted by Popeye Doyle View Post
Recent article from the Army Times:

https://www.armytimes.com/articles/n...the-m4-and-556
From the Article:
"Ehrhart wrote that half of the firefights infantry units in Afghanistan encountered were past 300 meters, and the 5.56 mm round had lessened lethality at longer distances. ...
...One case, detailed in the 2010 book “The Gun,” by former Marine and award-winning journalist C.J. Chivers, grabbed national attention during the Vietnam War when Marine 1st Lt. Michael Chervenak wrote an open letter that recounted his company’s experiences with the new rifle jamming in combat. ...

— Improvements in adversaries’ body armor, which make the 5.56 mm less lethal.

— Current adversaries such as the Islamic State terror group and others using bigger rounds with more reach against U.S. troops, creating an overmatch.

— Jamming problems with M16/M4 variants that continue to plague the design."

---
Now it the M4 and DI system are God's gift to the Infantry, why the constant need to upgrade, enhance, fix issues, replace magazine problems and seek an alternative? Why not just adopt the "perfect" AR10?

I guarantee the next weapon system WILL NOT be designed around a DI system. It will be some type of piston operating system, absent some other huge leap forward in gun technology. And I find it utterly rewarding and hillary-ous that this article supports everything I've been saying about the DI, M4, and 556 as being woefully inadequate and unreliable and unable to hit ranges we need. And it totally refutes all the death dealer DI M4 clingers in this and similar forums. Yet, they are the experts on all things military weapons. Ha, this is such a great way to start the day.

Now, personally, I think there are good off-the-shelf patches as discussed. However, the M.I.C. will want to gobble up money on endless testing and designs. It'll be worth it if it can deliver a larger caliber, modular system that actually works reliably with a non-DI system and is affordable. Safer and more fiscally responsible bet is to use a proven off-the-shelf platform.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
I have only seen 4 M4 type rifles have issues in the 80K or so rounds I have seen go downrange in my lifetime (which is NOT a lot, before anyone asks...but it is a sample of 80k...)

1 was a BCM that was not lubed at all. Bone dry. After about 5-600 rounds in one day, it was failing to return to battery fully, and light-strikes on the primer/dead trigger resulted. It has always been my opinion that if you want to run the gun full of ****, you over-spring, and over-gas it. This BCM was neither. A bit of lube returned it to full function.

1 was an LWRC (top of the line, spiral-fluted, etc.), and the piston system died like a dog. It was out of action for the rest of the 3 day course (this happened TD1 as I recall).

1 was on a Surefire rep's gun, and he had an adjustable gas system that he had turned wayyyy down so it would cycle super soft suppressed. It got dirty about 100 rounds in to TD1 and he had to revise his plan. It worked fine after some tuning and lube.

1 was being used with ammo that looked like it had been scavenged from the ground and stuffed into USGI mags that were worn gold and then silver. This was a Force Recon guy, and he was fast as hell at clearing double-feeds, so it was just more training for him. He was on a shoestring budget and made what he could scrabble together for the course work.


Never saw anything else that really bothered me other than bubba'ed up stuff, such as an Eotech that wasn't attached well and began moving around and the shooter couldn't engage past 100 yards anymore. Or a muzzle-device fly downrange. Or stuff like that that could happen on any platform.

In short, I saw several things that could be attributed to various things, but none really to the Stoner gas system, intrinsically.
In 31 years of shooting M-sexteens and ARs, I never had a problem with DI or pistons
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:02 PM
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I never had a problem with any of my piston driven M14s, been shooting them for years.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
I never had a problem with any of my piston driven M14s, been shooting them for years.
I never did either, until I let my brother borrow my SOCOM, and he cleaned and lubed it when he was done, and that apparently included generously lubing the piston.

I went to shoot it on a cool late fall day, and couldnt figure out why it was a single shot. At first I though he had the valve closed, but that wasnt it.

I took it home and cleaned it and noticed the piston was "wet". Cleaned/degreased the piston and cylinder, and all was good again.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:28 PM
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Just to maybe reel this in a tad.... I bought a brand mew M1A in 1977 when they first came out & had it for 6 years. During that time I went to PA gunsmith school & learned some things about what makes good & bad designs. The M1A is decent in the reliability area as we all know but the accuracy we have come to expect as civilians, it just falls short due to the poor stock capture & control of heated harmonics. I sold the M1A to purchase a new Imbel SAR48 in 83. The FAL was a clear upgrade in accuracy while non stop shooting. I would typically shoot a number of 10 round strings of reloads holding 3" or better. One time the FAL printed 10 rounds in a 5/8ths group. I like a M1A but I love a FAL. When the AR 10 Target model came out, a friend promptly bought one and to his dismay, it wouldn't cycle ammo. I went over every aspect of that gun from gas port to buffer and gas rings to chamber wall, it all looked good but the gun would only cycle hot FNM ammo. It was a turd that went back to the factory only to still have the same issues. Todays AR 7.62x51's appear to be good rifles that would be more likely to be the most accurate in civilian use. That said, the piston drive, adjustable gas, parts a plenty FAL is the best for the average SHTF Joe who wants the power of a battle rifle. What little I know of the uber reliable HK91 is not enough to make comparative comment other than they were overly expensive until Cetme clones came in but with the availability of FAL variations & parts, I don't miss the miserable triggers and brass creasing 91 series.

As for AR15's I used to sell Daewoo's as a dealer. That was an outstanding piston drive AR type that is still in military use today. The AR DI system typically has a leg up on pistons in the accuracy dept, but if a rock n roll sustained fire need arises, the piston drives walk away from DI gas systems. Introducing a super heated gas stream with copper vapor into the heart of an action was never a good idea.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:40 PM
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Woos are wonderful.



The one M1A that I owned was a basket case, but my M14s custom
built by Smith Enterprise are reliable & accurate :: 1 MOA & sub MOA
Old 05-19-2017, 03:45 PM
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I have read and heard plenty of pros/cons on AR15s, AR10s, M1s, H&Ks, etc. but the one rifle I have only encountered positive reviews on is the PTR. For cost effectiveness, reliability, accessories, etc. it appears to be a fine choice.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye Doyle View Post
I have read and heard plenty of pros/cons on AR15s, AR10s, M1s, H&Ks, etc. but the one rifle I have only encountered positive reviews on is the PTR. For cost effectiveness, reliability, accessories, etc. it appears to be a fine choice.
Great fitness tool, lugging a PTR around
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:52 PM
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Great fitness tool, lugging a PTR around
That was the most noticeable difference when I owned a SOCOM 16 ... it was a couple pounds heavier than my AKs and ARs, yet felt like considerably more. But the finest darned long gun I ever had.
Old 05-19-2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Great fitness tool, lugging a PTR around
As were most of the WWII/Korea era rifles.

Quote:
That was the most noticeable difference when I owned a SOCOM 16 ... it was a couple pounds heavier than my AKs and ARs, yet felt like considerably more. But the finest darned long gun I ever had.
Unfortunately, I didnt have as good an experience with my SOCOM. Just a whole lot of annoying BS and dealing with their CS.

The early Springfield M1A's were much different rifles, or at least mine were. That SOCOM, and the last half dozen or so 1911's of theirs I had were what made me give up on them altogether.


While were on the subject of M1A's.... are you familiar with these?



Its an extended bolt stop. It allows you to do your mag change and drop the bolt without removing your hand from the grip, very much like an AR. That one was a Smith Enterprise I believe and was on my SOCOM.

I have one of the "Rooster 33" versions (unused) if any of you M1A boys are interested.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OMAN View Post
Woos are wonderful.



The one M1A that I owned was a basket case, but my M14s custom
built by Smith Enterprise are reliable & accurate :: 1 MOA & sub MOA
Heres my brother's Woo I rebarreled with finned stainless & shortened gas system back in about 1992


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Old 05-19-2017, 09:41 PM
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Hopefully not adding to the current thread ****storm, I was rooting around and came across one of MAC's videos where he works some dirt through an AR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHwoZ6SS_pY

Granted, it's only a short video, but for the average Joe (like myself) that Colt functioned with more crap in it than I'll ever experience.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:54 AM
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http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t...ine-filthy-14/ checkout this link....its more proof then that bs bias military testing
Old 05-20-2017, 10:59 AM
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I never really understood what the not cleaning them ever proved, other than the owner is a retard and doesnt maintain their weapons. Maybe for that lot, it might show which platform does best, and maybe thats the one they should choose, or maybe not.

From the various tests Ive seen, the AR rifles definitely do best compared to most of the other older platforms when it comes to "debris" getting into the action causing issues. But I would imagine the G3's and FAL's, etc are similar there too.

Things like the M1, M14, and AK, all have a fairly big opening behind the bolt that when closed, still allows for a good bit of stuff to get in and screw things up. In the case of the M1/M14, once the bolt is back, the larger than most opening is even more of an issue. Just the nature of the design.

Most of the debris tests Ive seen usually tied the M1/M14 within a couple of rounds, where most of the others do a lot better.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:00 PM
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Things like the M1, M14, and AK, all have a fairly big opening behind the bolt that when closed, still allows for a good bit of stuff to get in & OUT.
Old 05-20-2017, 06:10 PM
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Its the "IN" thats the problem. They dont seem to let much out, even when they try and clear them.

Most other rifles have a basically closed action when in battery. Even the AK is pretty well off, as long as the selector is on safe.

Its pretty obvious what the problem is when you watch the various videos of the M1's and M1A's when debris is being directed at the gun while firing, or if they have been dunked, etc. Most Ive seen didnt make it past the first round when fired. The guns with the closed actions seem to shrug it off pretty well.
Old 05-20-2017, 06:57 PM
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The M1 Carbine/M1 Garand/M14 type action-ed rifles are super easy to clear debris out of....well.... that's unless you're making a biased YouTube video of it.

Let's all remember the extreme reliability of these rifles seen by the Soldiers and Marines who fought with them all over the world in many adverse conditions. If they were as bad, or even a fraction as bad, in this regard as they're painted out to be (by the internet commandos) the US would've certainly suffered for it.
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:17 PM
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The videos Ive seen didnt seem to be biased unless of course, you feel they are picking on "your" favorite gun. All the guns in the videos were subject to the same thing. They didnt seem to have any favorites, or give any special attention, except for the M1/M14's, when they didnt work, so in reality, they actually got preferential treatment of sorts. They did try to get them to go, and they just kept constantly failing. What happened, happened, like it or not, it just is what it is.

I really have no bias, here either, Ive owned and shot multiples of most of the major military rifles being discussed here, including a number of M1's and M1A's, which I still have a couple of. I know what they are like and what tends to be an issue with them. The simple fact is, with the M1/M14 rifles, that opening behind the bolt when its in battery, and the open action itself, can be an issue in the respect of things getting into the action. The other designs are just less prone to it, and also usually easier to get open to clean them out, if need be.
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:46 PM
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I have talked to plenty of Soldiers and Marines that said sand, mud and the M1 don't mix
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mere_Man View Post
The M1 Carbine/M1 Garand/M14 type action-ed rifles are super easy to clear debris out of....well.... that's unless you're making a biased YouTube video of it.

Let's all remember the extreme reliability of these rifles seen by the Soldiers and Marines who fought with them all over the world in many adverse conditions. If they were as bad, or even a fraction as bad, in this regard as they're painted out to be (by the internet commandos) the US would've certainly suffered for it.
Exactly. The M16/M4/AR10 clingers seem to rewrite history and apparently in their fabricated version, the M1 Garand must have failed repeated and left a trail of bloody bodys. It was so bad, they "improved" it by a few mods and then the M14 was borne.
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