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Old 10-15-2009, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by aka"militiamike" View Post
sweet set up bushwacker.....hey if you wanna read some good books from a guy that has sailed the world in his small sailboat, read any book by "tristan jones" I think by far his best books were "outward leg" and "the incrediable voyage"...check them out...great reading!
http://www.tristanjones.org/meet_tristan.htm
Tristan Jones is one of the great survivors of all time. sometimes did not make the best decisions which led him into more than a few tight situations. he was great at making due with what was available at the time.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:45 PM
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How can you run out of food with all those fish around? And how can somebody that bugs out resupply? You can carry a lot more supplies on a sailboat. Fuel for a sailboat? It's a luxury. Sailors routinely carry weeks of supplies on long passages.
Dude, you evidently have not sailed. For one thing = Storage is extremely limited on sailboats.

The average 40' sailboat might store 30-60 days of rations and necessities (Boat stripped-out, and jammed with food stores). You cannot live off of possibly caught fish.

"Fish" alone, does not provide what the human body requires for fit, and healthful sustenance.

Sails wear-out, Pumps fail, Storms can kill, etc, etc, etc....
Have you ever seen the amount of damage that Saltwater does on a boat, boat parts, etc???



On the other hand, it is possible to "live off the land" as a land-lubber.

It is NOT possible to live on the ocean (and "off" the ocean), without re-supply - period.

Any live aboards, that sail - are reliant on port-of-calls, or ports, and land, in general.

A sailboat is a means of transportation....prolonged transportation.

It is NOT a self-sustaining capsule, and being afloat in the middle of the ocean, is NOT a self-sustaining environment.

When you come across a story of a person that has survived in a healthy state, by themselves, afloat, far from land, in the middle of the ocean, for an extended length of time (6 months +) - with NO re-supply....please be sure to post it, I, and many other sailers, would be eager to read about this.

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Ad what makes you think that the Bahamas, for example, would be so bad that you couldn't pull in to a port ad resupply during the early parts of TSHTF. I think whatever happens to the US, most likely an economic collapse, won't affect other countries at the same time.

That sailboat would be just like any other bol. Away from the masses.
Yeah - keep "hope" alive.... Evidently you haven't seen the "real" areas of the bahamas - ony the tourist areas. If the SHTF, those tourist areas will quickly cease to exist. The slums of Bahamas, will be - what exists.

If you understand anything about "Island nations", you would realize that they rely heavily on imported goods and food. When the SHTF - there will be very little of both, to be found on them.

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Last edited by NHCraigT; 10-15-2009 at 09:25 PM..
Old 10-16-2009, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by NHCraigT View Post
Dude, you evidently have not sailed. For one thing = Storage is extremely limited on sailboats.

The average 40' sailboat might store 30-60 days of rations and necessities (Boat stripped-out, and jammed with food stores). You cannot live off of possibly caught fish.

"Fish" alone, does not provide what the human body requires for fit, and healthful sustenance.

Sails wear-out, Pumps fail, Storms can kill, etc, etc, etc....
Have you ever seen the amount of damage that Saltwater does on a boat, boat parts, etc???



On the other hand, it is possible to "live off the land" as a land-lubber.

It is NOT possible to live on the ocean (and "off" the ocean), without re-supply - period.

Any live aboards, that sail - are reliant on port-of-calls, or ports, and land, in general.

A sailboat is a means of transportation....prolonged transportation.

It is NOT a self-sustaining capsule, and being afloat in the middle of the ocean, is NOT a self-sustaining environment.

When you come across a story of a person that has survived in a healthy state, by themselves, afloat, far from land, in the middle of the ocean, for an extended length of time (6 months +) - with NO re-supply....please be sure to post it, I, and many other sailers, would be eager to read about this.



Yeah - keep "hope" alive.... Evidently you haven't seen the "real" areas of the bahamas - ony the tourist areas. If the SHTF, those tourist areas will quickly cease to exist. The slums of Bahamas, will be - what exists.

If you understand anything about "Island nations", you would realize that they rely heavily on imported goods and food. When the SHTF - there will be very little of both, to be found on them.
Though I generally agree with you on most things, this is NOT one of them. I was a live aboard cruiser for 12 years. Both of my children were born on a boat. I have survived 12 hurricanes (10 on my boats), and I never had less than 6 months worth of provisioned food on board at any given time (with one the exception of one 30' catamaran which I chose to keep light.) My first and second boats were engineless.

The largest boat I had was a 43' Steel Schooner that I easily kept 12 month of food aboard for a family of 3 (before my 2nd child was born.) If you knew me, you would have NEVER seen me at a dock - not even for fuel.

Now you may not be able to store enough food on the boats that you have had, but that does not mean that it cannot be done. Otherwise, you are correct that things on a boat wear out. However, that does not mean that one must use land based resupply. Not only did we carry plenty of food, we had lots of spares for everything aboard. There was very little that I could not do to my boats while away from land. I have done the following without contact with land: mend sails, repair rigging, repair the engine, repair the refrigeration, run new wiring, repair a prop, repair steering, replace steering, make a new tiller, patch a hole, replace a 1.5" thru-hull, install a windlass, install a watermaker, install an autopilot, install roller furling, step a mast, install a windlass, repair several dingys, and plenty more.

There was one thing that I was unable to do while at sea, reset my son's compound fractured arm. We had to go to Nassau for that.

It is possible to not only survive at sea for long periods, but to thrive at sea. No, one cannot stay at sea indefinitely, but they can be out for a very long time.

Have you heard of Sir Robin-Knox Johnston? The first known man to sail solo non-stop around the world in 1968. He was at sea for more than 10 months. http://www.robinknox-johnston.co.uk/

Have you heard of Bernard Moitessier? He was easily going to win the Golden Globe Around the World Challenge that Johnston won, but decided not to complete the voyage and kept going. He not only sailed around the world alone and non-stop, but continued on this way for another 2/3 of the world before finally stopping in Tahiti. Get the epic book, it is worth the read. If you are not a sailor and read this book, you will want to be afterwards: I hope that you and other are as "eager to read about this" as you implied. Maybe you (and others) will change your mind about the long-term sustainability of sailboats. It can be done.

I also agree that the Bahamas would NOT be a good place to hide, even in the most remote out islands. Someone with a skiff will find you and come back with friends after SHTF; I know this first hand, as I and some other cruisers had a stand-off with some Bahamians after a devastating hurricane hit there a decade back.
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:51 AM
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I never said anything about permanetly living on the boat, I said bugout on the boat..
Old 10-16-2009, 08:11 AM
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I remember my days at sea. Dam is that a tear?
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Old 10-16-2009, 08:28 AM
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Nice looking sloop. No I don't have my boat anymore. I miss her. I have often thought of her as a Bug Out transport. It's good to know if I ever have to take to the sea I have experience in some Blue Water Sailing, but not alot.

Last edited by Crossfire; 10-16-2009 at 03:51 PM..
Old 10-16-2009, 01:05 PM
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Lake Michigan get's pretty rough sometimes. It's not a little pond, it's 333 miles long and something like 150 miles wide at tha widest. We've been out for weeks at a time without really seeing shore. It's pretty cool.. I don't have any salt water experience.. Need to try it..
Old 10-16-2009, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NHCraigT View Post
Dude, you evidently have not sailed. For one thing = Storage is extremely limited on sailboats.

The average 40' sailboat might store 30-60 days of rations and necessities (Boat stripped-out, and jammed with food stores). You cannot live off of possibly caught fish.

"Fish" alone, does not provide what the human body requires for fit, and healthful sustenance.

Sails wear-out, Pumps fail, Storms can kill, etc, etc, etc....
Have you ever seen the amount of damage that Saltwater does on a boat, boat parts, etc???

On the other hand, it is possible to "live off the land" as a land-lubber.

It is NOT possible to live on the ocean (and "off" the ocean), without re-supply - period.

Any live aboards, that sail - are reliant on port-of-calls, or ports, and land, in general.

A sailboat is a means of transportation....prolonged transportation.

It is NOT a self-sustaining capsule, and being afloat in the middle of the ocean, is NOT a self-sustaining environment.

When you come across a story of a person that has survived in a healthy state, by themselves, afloat, far from land, in the middle of the ocean, for an extended length of time (6 months +) - with NO re-supply....please be sure to post it, I, and many other sailers, would be eager to read about this.

Yeah - keep "hope" alive.... Evidently you haven't seen the "real" areas of the bahamas - ony the tourist areas. If the SHTF, those tourist areas will quickly cease to exist. The slums of Bahamas, will be - what exists.

If you understand anything about "Island nations", you would realize that they rely heavily on imported goods and food. When the SHTF - there will be very little of both, to be found on them.
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""Dude, you evidently have not sailed.
""

""If you understand anything about "Island nations", you would realize that they rely heavily on imported goods and food.""

""Yeah - keep "hope" alive.... Evidently you haven't seen the "real" areas of the bahamas - ony the tourist areas.""




Well "dude" that's a nice way to start a post. How do you know anything about me? What makes you an expert?

I don't have to explain anything to you but I will. With a couple of exceptions, like my time away in the military, I lived in South Florida for over 40 years. I have owned power boats used to go to the Bahamas and for years I owned a 27 ft CapeDory in which I traveled the Bahamas extensively.

Did you even bother to read any previous threads before proclaiming yourself an expert?

Have you ever sailed the Bahamas? Have you been to the outer Islands? Or Grand Turk/South Caicos? How about the closer Islands like the Elutheras and seen their cliffs? How about Andros Island with AUTEC? How about Chub Cay? Walker's Cay? How about the touristy Nassau or the casinos at Freeport? Is that where you've been?

I 've been to all of them. And many others.

Although I never tried to sail down the Island chain completely independent of anything on shore It could easily be done. Even by you if you know how to sail.

Your statement: ""It is NOT possible to live on the ocean (and "off" the ocean), without re-supply - period."" is patently ridiculous on its face.

It most certainly is possible to live on a diet of fish and seafood indefinitely. I don't know where you're getting your info from. Islanders have been doing it from the beginning. You think they were "re-supplied" before the European explorers came along?

In the Bahamas fish are plentiful. Drop bait to the bottom and you'll catch snapper, grouper, grunts and many other types. Troll at mid depth and you'll catch Kingfish mackerel and many others in season. Troll on top and you'll catch Dolphin (AKA Mahi-Mahi). There are plenty of Conch, crabs, lobster, clams and other seafood. All of them delicious.

Even in a 27 ft Cape Dory I could store more than you apparently could in your 40 footer. My boat would sleep 6: 2 in the master stateroom which held plenty of storage, 2 in the sides next to the galley and the nav station, drawer style, and 2 by converting the dinette. And who needs a dinette in a SHTF situation. I don't know what you carry in yours, maybe designer clothes and shoes? You need very few shoes and very few clothes in the tropics on a boat.

With a small desalinator you have unlimited water.

With a couple of rods and reels plus maybe a spear gun you've got food covered.

You've already got shelter covered. You don't need heat in the tropics although air conditioning would be nice. All cruising sailboats come with a refrigerator although that's a luxury. Your food is right outside your cabin.
Another luxury is a generator and most come with it here in Florida. A marine wind mill will give you just enough power to charge your batteries and keep your Radios and other electronics going.

Getting a little tired of fish and rice? Anchor at a beach walk a few yards, and treat yourself to all the mangoes coconuts and lots of other fruits (like avocados) growing wild. There are a lot of edible roots and plants in the tropics.

Have some prior knowledge and you'll know which islands have fresh water springs in case your desalinator goes south.

The slums of the Bahamas? Friendly natives in the out-islands will gladly cook a feast for you if you bring some seafood. I've done it. They have a totally different outlook on life than you do. Want to cook it yourself? Don't want or can't use your stove? Use the grill attached to your railing and the plenty of dried driftwood on shore. Lots of mangroves and other trees around.

The boat? Have it ready to go! Sails, winches, lines and other parts last for years. The few parts that can break can be easily stored. I used my diesel only in the harbor and to dock. I would fill it up about once a year and it never dropped below a half a tank. If you're sailing a boat around that couldn't last 6 mos at sea you're neglectful.

If you think you're going to outlast a sailor being a land lubber and hunting squirrels and a very rare big animal neither of which will be there past a few weeks with the hunting pressure they'll be under, I say good luck to you!

BTW look at a map. Sailing down the island chain is not the same thing as sailing in the middle of the ocean as you claim.

In fact I've convinced myself. I'm going to sell my little piece of land in Tenn and buy another sailboat. What was I thinking?


P.S. I don't think the Bahamas would be any less safe after TSHTF than anywhere else. Probably safer. But you would have to have a watch system just like in any other BOL on land.

Last edited by 375H&H; 10-16-2009 at 10:28 PM..
Old 10-16-2009, 01:54 PM
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double post sorry.

Last edited by 375H&H; 10-16-2009 at 03:57 PM..
Old 10-16-2009, 04:20 PM
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Lake Michigan get's pretty rough sometimes. It's not a little pond, it's 333 miles long and something like 150 miles wide at tha widest. We've been out for weeks at a time without really seeing shore. It's pretty cool.. I don't have any salt water experience.. Need to try it..
Ask the crew from the SS edmund fitzgerald...they can tell you how dangerous the great lakes can be. (they are all dead by the way).....if you have sailed the great lakes bushwacker...you will have no problem sailing the open seas....I know....I have 7+ years of deep water experience under my belt and counting....fresh water or salt water..it makes no difference....
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:38 PM
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my boat is fast as hell! it cooks for quick getaways... also have river systems where i live that i can bugout on. plus also has complete gps system with waas radar on it!!!!
also, has mapping software that lets me navigate anywhere in the continental u.s. and canada... oorah!!!
and sonar for finding the fishlets....
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sniperfx View Post
my boat is fast as hell! it cooks for quick getaways... also have river systems where i live that i can bugout on. plus also has complete gps system with waas radar on it!!!!
also, has mapping software that lets me navigate anywhere in the continental u.s. and canada... oorah!!!
and sonar for finding the fishlets....
Deck gun?????
Old 10-16-2009, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sniperfx View Post
my boat is fast as hell! it cooks for quick getaways... also have river systems where i live that i can bugout on. plus also has complete gps system with waas radar on it!!!!
also, has mapping software that lets me navigate anywhere in the continental u.s. and canada... oorah!!!
and sonar for finding the fishlets....
Lol. Depth charges? Tomahawks?
Old 10-16-2009, 09:57 PM
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Sail in SWFla. somehow the thought of sailing around the Great Lakes in the middle of winter has no appeal to me. What do you think your chances are to make it out of the Lakes and out to sea? As a Temp. BOL a sailboat of 27 ft. or more has its place. As far as the best sailboat for a BOL IMHO its got to be the cat. Stable,plenty of room, shallow draft (which is really importand in many areas). Tri's are fast but the ones I've seen just don't have the cabin space and carry capacity (without affecting sailing trim).
Old 10-16-2009, 10:08 PM
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I daydream about Buging out in a Sailboat.
I envy you.
Old 10-16-2009, 11:25 PM
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Sail in SWFla. somehow the thought of sailing around the Great Lakes in the middle of winter has no appeal to me. What do you think your chances are to make it out of the Lakes and out to sea? As a Temp. BOL a sailboat of 27 ft. or more has its place. As far as the best sailboat for a BOL IMHO its got to be the cat. Stable,plenty of room, shallow draft (which is really importand in many areas). Tri's are fast but the ones I've seen just don't have the cabin space and carry capacity (without affecting sailing trim).
a cat is about the worse boat there is for tight quarters. they do not sail to the wind at all. pretty much useless where i am in the Puget Sound.
Old 10-17-2009, 09:06 AM
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Sail in SWFla. somehow the thought of sailing around the Great Lakes in the middle of winter has no appeal to me. What do you think your chances are to make it out of the Lakes and out to sea? As a Temp. BOL a sailboat of 27 ft. or more has its place. As far as the best sailboat for a BOL IMHO its got to be the cat. Stable,plenty of room, shallow draft (which is really importand in many areas). Tri's are fast but the ones I've seen just don't have the cabin space and carry capacity (without affecting sailing trim).
Yeah, my boat get's stored out of the water every year,it's already out. Sailing Lake Mighigan in the winter is pretty much impossible, it freezes. It looks like antarctica in the winter. From the southern tip of the lake," where I live", As far as you can see is huge ice shelves, some so high the look like small iceburgs. And they're really not small. First and foremost, I'm a wilderness survivalist, I just happen to have a boat.
Old 10-17-2009, 09:08 AM
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a cat is about the worse boat there is for tight quarters. they do not sail to the wind at all. pretty much useless where i am in the Puget Sound.
That is only your opinion. I have owned, built, and sailed both extensively. I can do FAR more with a catamaran than a monohull. That does not mean that one is better than the other, only that they each have their pros and cons.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:16 AM
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That is only your opinion. I have owned, built, and sailed both extensively. I can do FAR more with a catamaran than a monohull. That does not mean that one is better than the other, only that they each have their pros and cons.
Cats do break up in heavy seas....I would take a double ender monohull myself...
Old 10-17-2009, 12:19 PM
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Cats do break up in heavy seas....I would take a double ender monohull myself...
Another broad-brushed sea myth. Any poorly build vessel (mono, multi, cargo, etc.) can "break-up" in heavy seas. Any stoutly built, well maintained vessel will easily sustain itself.

You are perpetuating idiotic myths. For every catamaran "break-up" story that you can find, I can find 10 "break-up" mono stories. The polynesians were crossing oceans in reed and bamboo catamarans long before Europeans figured out the earth was not flat.

I bet you also consider a sloop, or cutter rig "traditional?" They are two of the most modern rigs ever created. Double ended heavy full keeled mono "traditional?" Think again.

The Polynesians were using the Crab Claw rig on catamarans 3000 years ago. The chinese were using flat bottomed monohull junk rigs 2500 years ago. All are still in use today.

Vessel "break-up" rhetoric is old, but not nearly as old as the truly traditional vessels and rigs are, which have stood the test of time against your double-ended clorox bottle with a cutter rig. I will keep my 3000 year old proven vessels and rigs, you keep your 200 year old vessel and rigs. I will do it cheaper, faster, and more comfortable too.
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