Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > General Discussion Section > Religious Discussion
Articles Chat Room Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files



Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-30-2014, 11:34 PM
DRE66 DRE66 is offline
Informed
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 808
Thanks: 407
Thanked 701 Times in 407 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
By venerating Mary by giving her the title Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, we are giving her glory that only God deserves.

It is idolatry.
Here is another obscure reference (Pastornator's words):

“Veneration of the mother of God received its impetus when . . . the pagan masses streamed into the church. . . . Their piety and religious consciousness [that of pagans converted to Christianity] had been formed for millennia through the cult of the ‘great mother’ goddess and the ‘divine virgin.’”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 16, pages 326 and 327.

Its quite interesting that the city of Ephesus, where the Council of Ephesus was held in 431 C.E., had for centuries been at the heart of idol worship celebrating the fertility goddess Artemis. So it was that many aspects of the worship of the image of Artemis that “fell from heaven,” such as processions, were integrated into Mary worship. (see Acts 19:35)
The Following User Says Thank You to DRE66 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-01-2014, 07:42 PM
Keyzer Soze's Avatar
Keyzer Soze Keyzer Soze is offline
Автомат Калашникова
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 767
Thanks: 348
Thanked 386 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRE66 View Post
Here is another obscure reference (Pastornator's words):

“Veneration of the mother of God received its impetus when . . . the pagan masses streamed into the church. . . . Their piety and religious consciousness [that of pagans converted to Christianity] had been formed for millennia through the cult of the ‘great mother’ goddess and the ‘divine virgin.’”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 16, pages 326 and 327.

Its quite interesting that the city of Ephesus, where the Council of Ephesus was held in 431 C.E., had for centuries been at the heart of idol worship celebrating the fertility goddess Artemis. So it was that many aspects of the worship of the image of Artemis that “fell from heaven,” such as processions, were integrated into Mary worship. (see Acts 19:35)
More interesting is that the Council of Ephesus was a meeting of Christian bishops, not a mob of pagan idol-worshipers.

The Council resolved the Nestorian heresy which denied the combined humanity and divinity of Christ. Mary, the mother of our Lord, was declared Theotokos because she was the source of Christ's humanity. The early Church did not worship Mary. It recognized her involvement in the incarnation of Christ to whom - together with and Father and the Holy spirit - all glory and honor is due.

SÖZE
The Following User Says Thank You to Keyzer Soze For This Useful Post:
Old 02-01-2014, 08:37 PM
Hunter53's Avatar
Hunter53 Hunter53 is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central Colorado
Posts: 1,932
Thanks: 2,215
Thanked 3,074 Times in 1,297 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
By venerating Mary by giving her the title Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, we are giving her glory that only God deserves.

It is idolatry.
No it is giving glory to God, He created Her didn't He. By stating that this can't be or that can't be puts limits on Gods abilities. The God I worship is almighty.
The Following User Says Thank You to Hunter53 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-01-2014, 08:41 PM
Catapult's Avatar
Catapult Catapult is online now
You never let me down...
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: fly over state
Posts: 2,443
Thanks: 8,265
Thanked 7,426 Times in 1,959 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpp View Post
Jesus is God the Son, right? Second Person of the Trinity. Plenty of scriptuer to support that.

Mary was His mother, right? Plenty of scripture to support that.

So Mary, being the Earthly mother of Jesus can be thought of rightly to be the mother of God. However, that title does not imply that Mary somehow preceded God the Son in his existence, only in His earthy incarnation. No one I am aware of, certainly no faithful Catholics, suggest she does.

While it is true that God has no mother, it is also true that Jesus, who is God, does indeed have a mother.

So in that sense, the title "Theotokos" (Greek, "God-Bearer" or "Mother of God") is accurate, but only from the above perspective.
Can't agree, my friend. I have been created by God and so have you. So much can go wrong during pregnancy and childbirth we should relish our every breath and marvel at our luck.

Jesus is Jesus. God is still God. Two of them. I have never subscribed to a blending to the two. It doesn't make sense particularly when contrasted against Revelation. (bear with me here) Who was Jesus speaking to during his Crucifixion? Jesus used the term My Father quite a few times.


With all due respect. Where, what, how and to what grandeur Jesus' mother is honored is only our guess. I assume it is/will be beyond our comprehension.
Old 02-01-2014, 10:37 PM
blue123's Avatar
blue123 blue123 is offline
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Nevada
Posts: 8,439
Thanks: 4,460
Thanked 6,574 Times in 3,265 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Thread 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
what did jesus say about Mary?

Mathew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him,
“Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

end of story
__________________
''the court jester''
The Following User Says Thank You to blue123 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-01-2014, 11:08 PM
missouri dave missouri dave is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: lower alabama
Posts: 1,327
Thanks: 3,913
Thanked 2,697 Times in 891 Posts
Default

All I see in the OP is an emoticon waving, am I missing something?
The Following User Says Thank You to missouri dave For This Useful Post:
Old 02-01-2014, 11:13 PM
DRE66 DRE66 is offline
Informed
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 808
Thanks: 407
Thanked 701 Times in 407 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
More interesting is that the Council of Ephesus was a meeting of Christian bishops, not a mob of pagan idol-worshipers.
SÖZE
What's more interesting to me is what the facts indicate:

The New Encyclopædia Britannica:
“Veneration of the mother of God received its impetus when the Christian Church became the imperial church under Constantine and the pagan masses streamed into the church. . . . Their piety and religious consciousness had been formed for millennia through the cult of the ‘great mother’ goddess and the ‘divine virgin,’ a development that led all the way from the old popular religions of Babylonia and Assyria.”

The Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics
cites Bible scholar W. M. Ramsay as reasoning that in “the 5th cent. the honour paid to the Virgin Mary at Ephesus was [a renewed] form of the old pagan Anatolian worship of the Virgin Mother.”

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology
states: “The Catholic notions of the ‘mother of God’ and of the ‘queen of heaven,’ though later than the N[ew] T[estament], point to much earlier religio-historical roots in the East. . . . In the later veneration of Mary there are many traces of the heathen cult of the divine mother.”

Théo—Nouvelle encyclopédie catholique
says of these Black Virgins: “They appear to have been a means for transferring to Mary what remained of popular devotion to Diana [Artemis] . . . or Cybele.” The Assumption Day processions of the Virgin Mary also find their prototype in the processions in honor of Cybele and Artemis.

The Cult of the Mother-Goddess, by E. O. James,
states: “The Council of Ephesus assembled in the basilica of the Theotokos in 431. There, if anywhere, in the city so notorious for its devotion to Artemis, or Diana as the Romans called her, where her image was said to have fallen from heaven, under the shadow of the great temple dedicated to the Magna Mater [Great Mother] since 330 B.C. and containing, according to tradition, a temporary residence of Mary, the title ‘God-bearer’ hardly could fail to be upheld.”

Catholic priest Andrew Greely says in his book The Making of the Popes 1978: “The Mary symbol links Christianity directly to the ancient [pagan] religions of mother goddesses.”


What better place could there be than Ephesus for the “Christianization” of mother-goddess worship?
Old 02-02-2014, 12:08 AM
Mels thinkingitover's Avatar
Mels thinkingitover Mels thinkingitover is offline
None
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,171
Thanks: 38,068
Thanked 65,648 Times in 15,780 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Member 
Total Awards: 1
Default

As the OP of the thread has deleted his contributions for whatever reasons he had, there is a lack of continuity to the thread.

I am leaving it open for the time being as other contributors may have opinions they wish to post.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mels thinkingitover For This Useful Post:
Old 02-02-2014, 08:00 AM
blue123's Avatar
blue123 blue123 is offline
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Nevada
Posts: 8,439
Thanks: 4,460
Thanked 6,574 Times in 3,265 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Thread 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mels thinkingitover View Post
As the OP of the thread has deleted his contributions for whatever reasons he had, there is a lack of continuity to the thread.


yes, apparently he has realized the error of his ways.

__________________
''the court jester''
Old 02-02-2014, 05:33 PM
Cryptic Cryptic is offline
Target Shooter
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 461
Thanks: 165
Thanked 455 Times in 248 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
God was around way before Mary. She was a chosen vessel in which to bring forth Jesus whom was God in the flesh. On Earth Jesus was a man. Not the Father.

She should not be given the title Mother of God though. That gives her a goddess type of title. She was not a goddess.
Jesus was both God while on earth- men do not have the power to raise the dead, nor to cure diseases at will, nor to walk on water. Jesus did all these things. Jesus also had no problem aknowledging Mary to be his mother and submitting himself to her authority. His first first miracle of Changing water into Wine (display of divine power) was worked at her request / command as his mother.

In short, Mary was the Mother of God. As to why God humbled himself to be born to a human and then submitted himself to her authority, I dont really know. The reason, however, maybe special, wonderful and incomprehensible.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cryptic For This Useful Post:
Old 02-02-2014, 06:14 PM
Keyzer Soze's Avatar
Keyzer Soze Keyzer Soze is offline
Автомат Калашникова
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 767
Thanks: 348
Thanked 386 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRE66 View Post
What's more interesting to me is what the facts indicate:

The New Encyclopædia Britannica:
“Veneration of the mother of God...

The Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics
cites Bible scholar...

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology
states “The Catholic notions...

Théo—Nouvelle encyclopédie catholique
says of these Black Virgins...

The Cult of the Mother-Goddess, by E. O. James,
states “The Council of Ephesus assembled...

Catholic priest Andrew Greely says in his book The Making of the Popes 1978: “The Mary symbol...

What better place could there be than Ephesus for the “Christianization” of mother-goddess worship?
Indeed, what better place to assert red-herring-ism than right here on SBF. Pagan mother-goddess worship was never a Christian doctrine - in Ephesus - or anywhere else. Christianity's historical roots are in Judaism, not paganism. Judaism, and later Christianity, developed within - but exclusive of - the political and religious jurisdictions of the ancient Egyptian and Roman Empires.

All of the sources cited here parrot Post-Reformation, anti-Roman Catholic, rebellion-theology. It proceeds from the false assumption that the medieval RCC taught the same faith as the early Church. In the area of Marian doctrine, nothing could be further from the truth. Within the early Church, from the Apostolic era onward, Mary was acknowledged as the mother of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ was acknowledged as God incarnate. Read the Gospels. Then read them again.

The early Councils of the Church were called to refute specific heresies that had cropped up in the subsequent centuries. The bishops who met, discussed, and collectively expressed definitive statements on Christian doctrine, were from all over the Christian world, not just the city where the council met. To have a vote within Council, one had to be a bishop whose episcopal succession could be traced to one of the Apostles of Christ. Unrepentant pagans therefore, who were neither Christians nor bishops, had no official voice in early Church Councils.

The ancient Christian doctrine that Mary is to be called Theotokos, is an acknowledgement of the divinity and incarnation of Jesus Christ, not an elevation of Mary to divine status worthy of worship. The Orthodox Church has always venerated her in the name of the Father, and the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Never as a diety in the pattern of pagan mother-goddess worship.

The distorted view that of Mary the Mother of our Lord is to be venerated as a stand-alone entity is a product of the medieval Roman Catholic Church, NOT the ancient Christian Church. Early reformers Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Wesley knew the difference. Apparently, many modern-day protestants, evangelicals and Roman Catholics, do not.

Kyrie Eleison

::SÖZE::
Old 02-02-2014, 09:11 PM
Vectorwoman's Avatar
Vectorwoman Vectorwoman is offline
One of YHVH's sheep
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 13,972
Thanks: 26,083
Thanked 21,710 Times in 8,585 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Jesus was both God while on earth- men do not have the power to raise the dead, nor to cure diseases at will, nor to walk on water. Jesus did all these things. Jesus also had no problem aknowledging Mary to be his mother and submitting himself to her authority. His first first miracle of Changing water into Wine (display of divine power) was worked at her request / command as his mother.

In short, Mary was the Mother of God. As to why God humbled himself to be born to a human and then submitted himself to her authority, I dont really know. The reason, however, maybe special, wonderful and incomprehensible.
I understand all that.

The problem I have is with the who co redeemer thing and calling her Queen of heaven and such. If God was humble enough to be fully man on earth, and even have a human mother who raised and loved him as any other mother loves her son; you think he wants her raised to the status of mother of God?

I know Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to him.

I have a problem w/ the title given to Mary.

If Jesus was humbled as a man. I don't think he wants his mother raised to a goddess-like status.
Old 02-02-2014, 09:44 PM
adobewalls adobewalls is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 774
Thanks: 452
Thanked 1,064 Times in 474 Posts
Default

This is what Jesus stated when someone in a crowd sought to venerate his mother in his presence:

Quote:
Luke 11:27-28 "While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.' 28 But He said, 'On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.'"
Consider what Jesus said in an earlier exchange with his Apostles about himself:

Quote:
Matthew 16:13-17 "When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."
Now why didn't Jesus say something similar to this to the woman that tried to bless his mother rather than what he did say to her?
The Following User Says Thank You to adobewalls For This Useful Post:
Old 02-03-2014, 12:51 AM
Keyzer Soze's Avatar
Keyzer Soze Keyzer Soze is offline
Автомат Калашникова
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 767
Thanks: 348
Thanked 386 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
I understand all that.

The problem I have is with the who co redeemer thing and calling her Queen of heaven and such. If God was humble enough to be fully man on earth, and even have a human mother who raised and loved him as any other mother loves her son; you think he wants her raised to the status of mother of God?

I know Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to him.

I have a problem w/ the title given to Mary.

If Jesus was humbled as a man. I don't think he wants his mother raised to a goddess-like status.
Yes. The problem is obvious. Here's the cure.
  • Do not perpetuate the error by referring to Mary as "queen of heaven" or "goddess-like.
  • Refrain from denigrating or insulting her in any way. It's bad form. Worse than using "N-word" in public.
  • If you call yourself Christian, never deny the incarnation in the flesh of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
  • Remember, the title "Theotokos" means "God-bearer" or "Birth-giver to God". Nothing more, certainly nothing less.
  • Calmly and respectfully issue correction any "Christian" who makes these common mistakes in your presence.

::SÖZE::
Old 02-03-2014, 01:27 AM
Keyzer Soze's Avatar
Keyzer Soze Keyzer Soze is offline
Автомат Калашникова
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 767
Thanks: 348
Thanked 386 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adobewalls View Post
This is what Jesus stated when someone in a crowd sought to venerate his mother in his presence:

Consider what Jesus said in an earlier exchange with his Apostles about himself:

Now why didn't Jesus say something similar to this to the woman that tried to bless his mother rather than what he did say to her?
I think it'is more useful to read and understand the teachings of our Lord within the context in which he delivered them. The passages you cited were the products of two different writers, written at two different times, in two different places, reporting Christ's responses to two different people, in two different situations.

Why try to determine what Christ meant by what He didn't say in either given circumstance? Seriously, he did not mention Ducati motorcycles either. What are we to conclude from that non-statement? He preferred Japanese bikes? His SUV carried more passengers? Or what?

::SÖZE::
Old 02-03-2014, 07:51 AM
Cryptic Cryptic is offline
Target Shooter
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 461
Thanks: 165
Thanked 455 Times in 248 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
The problem I have is with the who co redeemer thing and calling her Queen of heaven and such.
I can see your point- to a degree. Though I am Catholic, I do not use the title "Co-Redemptrix" for Mary. The apparent reasoning behind it is ok, God's redemptive plan for humanity invovled having a human woman say "yes" to the incarnation out of free will. Thus Mary (or another human) was needed to redeem humanity. At the same time, such a title does give the impression that Mary is divine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
If God was humble enough to be fully man on earth, and even have a human mother who raised and loved him as any other mother loves her son; you think he wants her raised to the status of mother of God?
I dont think Jesus as a problem with this title at all. Afterall, Jesus announced that he was a manifestation of God, and then readily acknowledged Mary as his mother - and Jesus did so with out any ifs, ands or buts.
Old 02-03-2014, 09:12 AM
arleigh arleigh is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: southern california
Posts: 9,231
Thanks: 4,950
Thanked 8,079 Times in 4,274 Posts
Default

Matthew 12;47
Mark 3;32
Luke 8;20
I think Jesus disagrees with you.
The Following User Says Thank You to arleigh For This Useful Post:
Old 02-03-2014, 09:20 AM
arleigh arleigh is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: southern california
Posts: 9,231
Thanks: 4,950
Thanked 8,079 Times in 4,274 Posts
Default

Jesus Himself instructed the disciples not to take up authoritative titles such as master ,father ,rabbi or teacher.
These belonged to Jesus and God alone .
Because men ignore Jesus direct commands, do not circumvent God's design.
Matthew 23;7,8,
The Following User Says Thank You to arleigh For This Useful Post:
Old 02-03-2014, 09:41 AM
jazzyfizzle's Avatar
jazzyfizzle jazzyfizzle is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North of the Mohicans
Posts: 5,768
Thanks: 11,088
Thanked 7,472 Times in 3,912 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
Indeed, what better place to assert red-herring-ism than right here on SBF. Pagan mother-goddess worship was never a Christian doctrine - in Ephesus - or anywhere else. Christianity's historical roots are in Judaism, not paganism. Judaism, and later Christianity, developed within - but exclusive of - the political and religious jurisdictions of the ancient Egyptian and Roman Empires.

All of the sources cited here parrot Post-Reformation, anti-Roman Catholic, rebellion-theology. It proceeds from the false assumption that the medieval RCC taught the same faith as the early Church. In the area of Marian doctrine, nothing could be further from the truth. Within the early Church, from the Apostolic era onward, Mary was acknowledged as the mother of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ was acknowledged as God incarnate. Read the Gospels. Then read them again.
]


Oh contrare on the bolded. Start reading some of the Egyptian, Sumerian, Canaanite, ect, ect, texts. Psalm 104 is the Hymn to Aten. We have the three ply rope (trinity idea) in Gilgamesh. Cyrus is venerating Ba'al in replica. Lot of Revelation comes from Egyptian stuff- take the narrow road for example.
Old 02-03-2014, 02:20 PM
Cabinet Maker Cabinet Maker is offline
Wood butcher
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,463
Thanks: 2,326
Thanked 2,332 Times in 966 Posts
Default

Not to be a Devil's advocate, because that I would never do, but is it possible that God exerted some influence on the pre-Abrahamic cultures?
Reply

Bookmarks



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hail Mary 300mag Religious Discussion 455 09-25-2013 09:36 PM
Have a Happy Mother's Day! And let's remember Blessed Mary.... MountainRecluse Religious Discussion 9 05-19-2011 06:05 PM
Oh Mary Lou... Dwind Military Weapons Forum 2 05-18-2011 09:13 AM
Mary of Magdala Old Philosopher Religious Discussion 30 12-16-2009 03:23 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Kevin Felts 2006 - 2012,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net