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Old 10-30-2009, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by go player View Post
Sure but unfortunately you are transposing today's chemical steels ( the best of which are made in Japan lol) and the techniques/materials of medieval times.

Sure todays steels are better than even tamahagane. However, it isn't just tradition that keeps modern smiths using tamahagane.... the differential quench resulting in hamon is far more aesthetically pleasing in their minds on TH than it is on some D2. Tamahagane also sharpens MUCH easier than D2.

Comparing like to like the katana of yesteryear was a far superior weapon than was the English Broadsword, for example. Comparing today's replicas of both...? They are, of course, the same lol.

BTW: Only 12 years? Noob! Just kidding.
Lol... that's why I bowed out.

There are too few of us in the hobby anymore as it is to escalate a conversation to the point where toes get stepped on.

I think arguing on the internet is counterproductive.

-BB
Old 10-30-2009, 02:37 AM
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I have to. in part. disagree with you… lots of societies have named their weapons, written poems about and TO THEM and developed a mystique surrounding them and especially their making…Damascus and Toledo, Soligen and Sheffield, Dan’l Boone and Davy Crockett, the Danes with their blade sagas, the Gauls, Britons, Angles, Mongols etc…

The sabre isn’t a point weapon and the law of the sword is “the point will always beat the edge”…What is considered to be the best cavalry sabre ever designed was done by Lt. (later General) George S. Patton and is called the US M1917 Sabre, Cavalry…Large enclosed handguard and a straight, fairly narrow blade but with an angle to the handle to aid in the slash…Just think, finally a proper cavalry sabre when the horse soldier is a thing of the past…

The manual of arms for horse shows the attack to attacking or retreating persons is with the blade “in reverse” the hand turned up so that the point is down and the sharpened part is up to be able to pierce the person and the edge will cut through the body…If taken with edge down the point is then up and it happened many times where the blade may have cut the person but didn’t piece the body as it just rode up the front/back…Also with it in reverse, more power was asserted to the slash when encountering the enemy…The retreating soldiers were for the majority of times slashed to the face as the rider went past as “speared” from behind because they would still the haversacks on and those would deflect any stroke…

OP, comparing a katana to a broadsword is like comparing a Model T to a skateboard! Both are wheeled vehicles of transportation but there the comparison ends…They are swords from two different time periods, two different cultures and more importantly two different styles of fighting and with two totally different purposes of usage—one cuts and the other bludgeons…

Comparing fighting techniques between them isn’t that easy as one used boiled leather around metal strips and the other used plate steel…Not everyone on the battle field wore a full set of armour, only the gentry and men at arms who could afford it and the others made do with mail or a front piece and pikers would have shin guards and steel covered footwear…Another fallacy is that the nights fought with swords—they did but only as a last resort—they would use hammers, maces, cut down halberds and other pole arms as their primary weapons when afoot and of course the war lance when a horse…

Quote:
Originally Posted by BumblingBear View Post
I hope that this helps. And to clarify, I never said that a Katana is worthless or that a broomhandle is better. My point is that it's not the best sword ever made, and I don't even think it's the best sword made for its job or the Japanese would not have adopted sabers so quickly.
-BB
They didn’t “adopt” sabres as they were ordered not to wear/carry/use their Samurai blades and that was all that was available to them from the supporting militaries of Germany, France, Britain and USA which they wanted to emulate so badly…Now instead of an army of sword wielding Samurai only officers carried sabres and as a sign of superiority over the lower class…Also, the sabres also didn’t last very long as the pictures from the Nippon/Russo war in 1905 show the officer class aboard ships and in the field all carrying very traditional Japanese style blades and not sabres as well in China and of course during WW2…According to numerous sources the old line families just had military hardware put on their handed down 16th and 17th century blades to comply with the rules at the time…

BB --, go player wasn’t stating that the katana was better but that the metallurgy was not exactly as you pointed out…Scottish and Irish blades were supposed to be better then the Roman ones because of the raw ore they used—somewhat like the Danes et al used…All Wootz (just recently rediscovered by Al Pendray) Damascus steel is, is the matching of impurities of today’s steels to Damascus steel of a couple of hundred years ago…multiple steels, folded together came west from India and Persia probably around the 3rd century AD…

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Old 10-30-2009, 02:44 AM
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I forgot, here is a list of Jim's books and some other titles you might find of interest:

Hrisoulas…..Jim…..The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way To Perfection
Hrisoulas…..Jim…..The Master Bladesmith
Hrisoulas…..Jim…..The Pattern Welded Blade: Artistry In Iron

Historical
Burton…..Richard F.…..The Book Of The Sword**
Coe…..Michael D.…..Swords And Hilt Weapons
Davidson…..H. R. Ellis…..The Sword In Anglo Saxon England
Ffoulkes…..Charles…..Sword, Lance And Bayonet
Hutton…..Alfred….. The Sword And The Centuries
Oakeshott…..R. Ewart….. The Sword In The Age Of Chivalry**
O'Connell, Robert & Batchlor, John…..An Illustrated History Of Weaponry And Warfare
Thompson…..Logan, Major…..The Armoured Knight Of 1200 AD
Wagner.....Edward….. Cut And Thrust Weapons
Waite….. Adrian…..The Medieval European Sword
Weland…..G.…..A Collector's Guide To Swords, Daggers And Cutlasses
Wilkinson…..Frederic…..Edged Weapons
Wilkinson…..Frederic…..Swords And Daggers
Rapiers
Lovino….. G. A.….. Traite d'Escrime
Norman.A. & Vesey B.…..Small Swords And Military Blades
Valentine…..Eric…..Rapiers
Training
Clements…..John…..Renaissance Swordsmanship
La Rocca…..Don….. The Academy Of The Sword
Waller….. John…..The Academy Of Dramatic Combat: Sword Fighting
Wilson….. William…..The Art Of Defense: A Practical Guide To The Study Of The Rapier
Training - Broad
Brown….. Terry…..English Martial Arts
Clements…..John…..Medieval Swordsmanship
Davies…..Jonathan…..Tudor Swords And Swordsmanship
Deladrier…..Clovis…..Modern Fencing
Hobbs….. William…..Fight Direction For Stage And Screen
Hutchinson…..Fred…..The Modern Swordsman
de Beaumont…..C. L. …..All About Fencing - Foil, Epee, Sabre
Lane….. Richard J.…..Swashbuckling: A Step-By-Step Guide To The Art Of Stage Combat And Theatre
Lindholm…..David…..Sigmund Ringneck's Knightly Art Of The Longsword
Rector…..Mark…..Highland Swordsmanship
Sanchez…..John…..Slash And Thrust
Talhoffer…..Hans…..Medieval Combat translated by Mark Rector, Intro by John Clements
Wagner…..Paul…..Master Of Defense: The Works Of George Silver
Zabinski…..Grzegorz…..Codex Wallerstein: A Medieval Fighting Book
The Code of the Duel
Bal****…..Robert…..The Duel: A History
Keen…..Maurice Hugh…..Chivalry
Kirchner…..Paul…..Dueling With Sword And Pistol
Price….. Brian R.…..The Book Of The Tournament
Wilson….. John L.…..The Code Of Honor
Japan
Kapp, Leon & Yoshihara, Hiroko…..The Craft Of The Japanese Sword
Kapp….. Leon….. Modern Japanese Swords And Swordsmiths: From 1868 To The Present
Kawchi, Kunihira & Manabe, Masao…..The Art Of The Japanese Sword As Taught By The Experts
Nagayama…..Kokan…..The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords
Parulski…..George R., Jr.…..Sword Of The Samurai: The Classical Art Of Japanese Swordsmanship
Sato…..Kanzan….. The Japanese Sword : A Comprehensive Guide
Tuchiko…..Tamio…..The New Generation Of Japanese Swordsmiths
Japan - Military
Dawson…..Jim…..Swords Of Imperial Japan 1868 - 1945
Fuller….. Richard…..Japanese Military And Civilian Swords And Dirks
Fuller….. Richard…..Military Swords of Japan 1868 - 1945
Slough…..John…..Modern Japanese Swordsmiths 1868 - 1945

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Old 10-30-2009, 08:42 AM
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my choice is langes messer, short enough for home defense ,and good balance for fencing , can be used against armor, and you can use like tool if need.


falchion kind of machete of middle age, it has good balance, more slow than messer for fencing, but better for chopping


Messer was used from 14th to 16th in germany and nord europe , falchion from 11th to 16th in england, france and south europe. Both was home defense swords of peasant , and for fencing in cities. Easy for untrained person to use effectively.
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:46 PM
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I've practiced both western fencing and Japanese fencing, as well as a Japanese sword art. I've seen my JSA teacher show the Kyudo teacher how to cut with a sword, and the Kyudo teacher was cutting mats in about 5 minutes. It's not hard to learn how to cut with a Katana, it's just basic mechanics. Most of the older schools were effectively neutered post WWII, and they don't practice cutting at all. My particular school taught a Gendai art, which was all standing and cutting, no seiza. For me, I'll stick to a two handed saber, whether Japanese or European. I prefer to have the power to cut through somebody and not worry about steel armor that no one wears anymore. If they're sporting mail or plate, I'll pull my 10mm out and end the problem.

Jim
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:08 AM
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This is my weapon of choice.

http://www.armor.com/custom932.html.

A mere 3 inch piercing of the torso or the eye socket of any potential burglar ends their career.

Mine has been slightly 'Italianized' ala the 1900's Italian Foil. 120 cm bell guard and strap for the wrist. My blade is differentially tempered D2 and the foible is slightly wider than the one shown in this photo.

That, 3 barrel chested hounds and a pitbull-greyhound mix make my house an unlikely target.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go player View Post
I don't know what history books you are reading but many of you have some glaringly erroneous concepts abut metallurgy, Japanese swords.

First, for the poster who chimed in about the 'Toranagas' ruling Japan. I apologize but the Toranagas were a fictional family in James Clavell's Shogun. Perhaps you meant Toyotomi?

BB you have said in several posts that Japanese sword metal was bad. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It isn't that Europe had such good metal that they didn't need to refine it, its that by and large they didn't know HOW... vikings excluded. They DID know how but I'll get to that.

Japanese sword smithing is really the pinnacle of swordcraft before the advent of modern tool steels. BB there is no difference in IRON. Iron is iron. Steel on the other hand.. is another thing.

The Vikings mined their iron by smelting it out of bogs and marshes. The japanese did the same thing using iron laced sand.

From there they both added carbon during the forging process.

Modern swords notwithstanding, Japanese swords are far superior to European style(non viking) straight swords. Why? Most of them were made from single layers of monometal, simple steel.

Incidentally, metal folding adds tensile strength, and its only the outer high carbon steel that has been folded.

Think of a hotdog. A low carbon steel, essentially iron is the hot dog, and the high carbon steel is the bun. After the HC steel has been folded up to 20 times or so it is wrapped around the low carbon hot dog.

After the whole assembly is lengthened and shaped, it is differentially heat treated so that the back of the blade is much more gummy, forgiving, less brittle. The edge is extremely hard. Some iaido blades are in excess of 70RC. The spines range around 45-50.

The purity of Japanese high carbon steel used in swordmaking is unquestioned by anyone other than members of this forum. I know this is just armchair discussion and not high scholarship.. but really folks, tamahagane is a fine steel, certainly the finest steel of medieval times.

Contrast that process to a medieval sword from England and you will see a sword not differentially tempered, not usually layered, made from one piece of steel and brittle as all hell. In short, a heavy, crappy sword. Why do you think they later copied the vikings?

Someone asked a question about why a cavalry saber does better than a katana against armor. My response is simple. Assuming metallurgy to be equal, the cavalry saber is balanced much farther towards the tip. Thus it swings a bit like a hammer. That percussive blow, combined with the blade geometry(very thick and stout) and you have smoething that doest cut thru armor, but tears thru it like a cleaver.

Any chinese saber would do as well if not better since the blade weighs more and is even more front weighted.
Even in the case of the vikings there are MANY sagas that lament of blades bending irretrievably or being so dull and pitted that they could not cut.

Even after the pattern welding they didn't use clays to differentially heat treat. So the blades were brittle.

I sincerely hope this helps. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all but I have been in my share of reenactment groups, including HACA/ARMA, SCA, Adrian Empire s I do know something about European medieval swordplay. I own more than a few Viking sword replicas. I'm also a member of the JSSUS.

I highly recommend reading:

1) The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Yoshindo Yoshihara

2) Any book by Jim Hrisoulas. A long time veteran of the SCA he's also the uber-maker of all things sharp and knifey-like! I think he goes by AJAX or something in the SCA. I have all his books. He's a famous sword book author....probably THE go to guy on forging European swords.

3) The Samural Sword by John Yumoto

4) J Christoph Amberger is a stuck up douche but does write a fine book or two on European swordplay. Look him up.

5) Egerton Castle is a famous sword play author from England. he wrote Schools and Masters of Fencing.

6) Ramon Martinez' videos on La Verdadera Destreza and his works on classical fencing are a good read too.

7) http://www.vincelewis.net/vikingsword.html is a good surce for Viking swords.

Cheers, I hope that helps clear up any confusion.

GoPlayer


4)
Reading through this thread again I wanted to thank you for this concise fact based post clearing up some of the misconceptions presented that seem based upon Renaissance Fairs and the like. Couple of thing that I think note worthy is the impression that the Japanese folded steel seems to be confused with Damascus steel. When in fact they very different. Damascus Steel is essentially a random blending of two or more complimentary steels that results in better edge retention and some increase in over all strength as a malleable steel can be blended with a harder steel resulting in a blade that has more tensile strength combined with a cutting edge that uses the all of the combined steels which seem to improve sharpness and edge retention over a mono steel blade. While Japanese folded steel is more like modern San Mai blades currently coming into vogue. San Mai being a hard steel sandwiched between layers of a softer more malleable steel to create a blade greater tensile strength while keeping an very sharp hard cutting edge that might be prone to chipping even snapping if used alone. Except that the Japanese Samurai swords have at least thirteen layers with the center core layer that will be the cutting edge being the hardest and each consecutive layer being slightly softer steels. Combined with differential heat treat that you noted is what created blades with exceptional even extraordinary tensile strength while retaining some of the hardest sharpest cutting edges ever produced.
The second point that did not seem to be addressed is that the Tanto point is a preferred point for many tactical knife users because of its most excellent penetration capabilities. A Samurai sword tip design is far superior for cutting through metal than other sword designs. At least to my limited experience. I have not stabbed through metal armor but have buried Tanto style blades and more conventional blade shapes through fire doors with all things being equal the Tanto style blades penetrate easier deeper
Old 03-04-2013, 08:42 AM
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A couple of things

1) Japanese metallurgy, especially their smelting technology was greatly inferior to late medieval european metallurgy of the same period. European metallurgy utilized sophisticated blast furnaces to mass produce high quality steel. The japanese were using very primitive tatara. This superior metallurgy was one the the reasons Europeans could create large amounts of sophisticate plate armour. European metallurgy as amongst the best in the world, because it had to be...you need good metallurgy to be able to create high quality church bells.

2) Monosteel is better. The Japanese used lamination and folding because their metallurgy could not produce large amounts of consistent steel. Folding the steel is done to work out and even up the carbon content. It is entirely unneeded with good quality steel. Folding can actually structurally weaken a blade by creating microscopic imperfections between the folds.

3) Japanese blades mixed soft pearlite and harder martensite to overcome the difficulties brought on by their inferior quality iron. A monosteel martensite blade is stronger and more structurally sound.

4) Armour is proof against cuts. Even hardened leather will make you fairly cut proof. there is no saber, no Katana, no euro longsword made that will cut through mail or plate.

5) A typical longsword was about 8 inches longer than a Katana, but weighed only a few ounces more on average. They were light, sharp, well balanced, reasonably flexible, made from high quality steel and agile as all hell. THEY WERE NOT THE HEAVY CLUMSY DULL BEATERS OF COMMON LEGEND!

The idea that a culture capable of creating extraordinary armour, huge church bells, perfected cannon manufacture and spent 1000 years constantly fighting everyone never actually learned how to make a sword is, well...

5) Most Katanas, like most Euro blades were mass produced junk. The ones that survive are the really fine ones that were passed down in the family and never used much in battle.(for the same reasons you never use your ferrari in a demolition derby) But the majority were quickly turned out, disposable beaters.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
Wow. That's a great site: http://www.angelswordstore.com/index...tpage&Itemid=1

I wasn't able to find the Damascus sword you were referring to but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
Search for the Avatar blades. They are made from Techno-Wootz steel.

Two of his blades. The Arming sword is the "economy" line. The Cutlass is from the mid grade.



Let's see if the colors in the blade show in the pic:
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:40 AM
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Nice thread and some good info here.

When choosing a sword we must know how we are going to use it. The basic working principle is that it applies shearing force and has an edge to act as a multiplier of this force.

The intended use will guide the choice of the design. Important factors are mainly maneuverability and balance, speed and energy transfer.
There is always some sort of compromise which makes the choice in accordance with the use very important.

A long heavy sword will have a lot of striking force but it is not as maneuverable as a shorter lighter one.
Many prefer to have the ability to make repeatable, fast blow, others like one huge blow to do the job.
This makes individual style important too.

Some swords throughout history were made to combine striking force and handling. Those had relatively shorter blades but wider at the same time.

It is basic physics. Energy is all about mass and speed.

I would personally prefer a shorter and wider blade. Wider will increase the available mass and being shorter will make it more maneuverable than a longer one. Also, longer blade geometry have a smaller (or should I say shorter) so called "sweet spot" which is the part of the blade where, when striking, most of the force is transfered through and not wasted in flexing and bouncing back.
Shorter blades have the advantage regarding their sweet spot as it is proportionally bigger.

In today's firearms world, I don't see many advantages for the longer blades. They are better at thrusting but I would much rather have a short wide blade to deliver a close range strike rather than having to thrust into an opponent who most likely will be carrying a firearm.

As for the dilemma, Japanese or European, I would strongly prefer a European sword that meets my criteria any day.
Old 03-05-2013, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Vertigo View Post
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this or not, but I figured I'd try, anyway.

I was wondering what some of the advantages of using a one- or two-handed European longsword over a typical Japanse curved blade (i.e. the katana and swords in the katana family) might be.

Japanese swords are pretty renouned for being efficient in speed and cutting ability. They also have a multitude of different styles that revolve around them. I'm somewhat familiar with their practicality, also, having trained in a martial art that focuses on the katana. I'm not so familiar with European blades, however, and I'd like to know why one might choose to learn to use a European sword art over a Japanese one (I'm trying to leave out other Asian arts and focus on Japanese), with tactical consideration.

And I'm curious as to what people have to say.

This is mainly directed at the swords themselves and not necessarily towards the art styles that use them. But I am curious about those, too, and I won't discourage bringing them up.
Katana's are over-rated in some ways. They are not as practical as a utilitarian sword is, they were made for the upper-classes, not the middle or lower clases.

European two-handed swords can cut through armor with ease, Japanese swords are more for cutting down unarmored men, dueling or an emergency in battle if your primary weapon is damaged or lost.

In actual tests the two handed sword will match the katana in everything except speed.

Old 03-05-2013, 05:12 AM
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Gotta love the 9mm vs 45 debate goin on here

that said I concur with the others who have stated the japanese stagnated in tech development

as to the vikings being the most advanced in europe or that WMA weapons were crude clumsy and slow are grossly ignorant and are succumbing to hollywierds presentation of it

but I digress heres some stuff from days gone by


pattern wielded viking spear circa 1100ad

last sword to be used in warfare by any modern army


I must say the one advantage of the WMA is that unlike the east when the gun came onto the scene it died out and remained in its full combative glory in fight manuscripts where as the asian counterparts being mostly oral have been sporterized and have lost there real martial roots

and as to blade evolution early norman swords and things like that vs viking without getting into the oakshot typology the early blades are based largely off the design of the spatha and then morph into there own deal


heres a good video talking about some of the european stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=k6BBq9zE2pY

Last edited by FarmerJohn; 03-05-2013 at 05:28 AM.. Reason: added video
Old 03-05-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Watch Ryder View Post
Katana's are over-rated in some ways. They are not as practical as a utilitarian sword is, they were made for the upper-classes, not the middle or lower clases.

The Katana was originally the sword of the infantryman. It began as a sword of the common masses. The preferred sword of the samurai for much of their fighting history was not the Katana..it was the longer and more acutely curved Tachi. The Samurai began to adopt the Katana when they started fighting on foot. Its smaller size and blade up mounting made it much handier as a sidearm for footsoldiers fighting in spear formations. Eventually the differences between tachi and katana vanished until the only difference was mounting..if you wore the sword sharp side up you had a katana. If the sword was worn sharp side down you had a tachi.

Quote:
European two-handed swords can cut through armor with ease, Japanese swords are more for cutting down unarmored men, dueling or an emergency in battle if your primary weapon is damaged or lost.
Euro swords cannot cut armour at all. A 48 inch longsword weighs almost the same as a 36 inch Katana. Longswords tended to be a bit more flexible, and used distal tapering. If anything, they are probably less well suited to bashing armour. To deal with armour you gripped the sword in two hands like a rifle with a bayonet and thrust the point into the gaps, using alot of grappling and joint locking.
Old 03-05-2013, 09:01 AM
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:04 AM
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:00 PM
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'Additionally, a japanese sword was designed primarily for cutting light targets like an unarmored opponent.'...

I suggest that the reason the curved blade as we know it were originally made was to cut through Mongol armour.Legend ascribes it's conception to the swordsmith Amakuni

Au contraire.. During and up to the Sengoku period Katana was used extensively against opponents in full Japanese battle armour....Seikigahara?...

The targets were the insides of the limbs ;joints,eyesockets fingers etc...anywhere that was weak...not the armour per se.

Have a look for... Secrets of the dead..Samurai...Secrets of the dead Crusaders....both on liveleak.

Also..War of the Roses ..Towton Graves ..youtube...which is not far from where i live.

I think you may find them interesting....considering their content.
Old 03-07-2013, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerJohn View Post
Gotta love the 9mm vs 45 debate goin on here

that said I concur with the others who have stated the japanese stagnated in tech development

as to the vikings being the most advanced in europe or that WMA weapons were crude clumsy and slow are grossly ignorant and are succumbing to hollywierds presentation of it

but I digress heres some stuff from days gone by


pattern wielded viking spear circa 1100ad

last sword to be used in warfare by any modern army


I must say the one advantage of the WMA is that unlike the east when the gun came onto the scene it died out and remained in its full combative glory in fight manuscripts where as the asian counterparts being mostly oral have been sporterized and have lost there real martial roots

and as to blade evolution early norman swords and things like that vs viking without getting into the oakshot typology the early blades are based largely off the design of the spatha and then morph into there own deal


heres a good video talking about some of the european stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=k6BBq9zE2pY
Celtic and Germanic swords also influenced the norman swords
Old 03-07-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taki View Post
'Additionally, a japanese sword was designed primarily for cutting light targets like an unarmored opponent.'...

I suggest that the reason the curved blade as we know it were originally made was to cut through Mongol armour.

Au contraire.. During and up to the Sengoku period Katana was used extensively against opponents in full Japanese battle armour....Seikigahara?...



Have a look for... Secrets of the dead..Samurai...Secrets of the dead Crusaders....both on liveleak.

Also..War of the Roses ..Towton Graves ..youtube...which is not far from where i live.

I think you may find them interesting....considering their content.
Polearms, spears and bills did the real butchers work.
Swords, especially in Japan were a back-up weapon in battle.

""The targets were the insides of the limbs ;joints,eyesockets fingers etc...anywhere that was weak...not the armour per se.""


In the chaos of battle with bodies in melee, wearing full armor with a helmet fancy targeting of elusive areas like that is near-impossible or absurd. You'd be aiming to put your opponent down first and foremost.
Old 03-07-2013, 08:03 PM
Taki Taki is offline
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There was rarely a melee at the start of a structured Japanese battle..usually a succession of one on one duels with verbal introductions too...not absurd at all ..that is how it was done.
...but the subject is swords is it not....

......Not Naginata,Nagamaki,Bisento or Yari....

Bills didn't exist in Japan nor are they used like a Naginata..they were used to chop down spear formations during our middle ages....especially at Flodden.

First and foremost the Samurai were mounted archers.
Monks and women tended to use the Naginata... [see also the tale of Benkei.]
Naginata do is still practiced mainly by women in Japan today.
Spears for the Ashigaru.

How exactly do you think you 'put' a ..experienced..sometimes more experienced, samurai down [or any opponent for that matter] ....without disabling a weak spot, an experienced swordsman will kill you very quickly.. Japanese or any other.
Melee ?... a properly wielded katana makes a whole lot of space real quick....and is an excellent melee weapon.

Have you done any sword training?..can you use a Katana?..do you own and use one?...your answers suggest not.
Yes to all for me.

When the battle progressed further, the Samurai went purposely looking for a skilled opponent to test his worth or to take his head for reward...or favour..not just killing peasants.

Peasants usually killed peasants...Samurai killed Samurai...the strict social order also bled into the battle procedures..for so long...so to speak.

Not been funny ,but,.....

Try the works of Dr Stephen Turnbull...they are quite informative.:thumb
Samurai Warfare....and his other informative works.

Then ...Miyamoto Musashi ....Gorin no sho
Yamamoto Tsunemoto Hagakure. ..two of my favourites....
Old 03-07-2013, 10:22 PM
FarmerJohn FarmerJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taki View Post
There was rarely a melee at the start of a structured Japanese battle..usually a succession of one on one duels with verbal introductions too...not absurd at all ..that is how it was done.
...but the subject is swords is it not....

......Not Naginata,Nagamaki,Bisento or Yari....

Bills didn't exist in Japan nor are they used like a Naginata..they were used to chop down spear formations during our middle ages....especially at Flodden.

First and foremost the Samurai were mounted archers.
Monks and women tended to use the Naginata... [see also the tale of Benkei.]
Naginata do is still practiced mainly by women in Japan today.
Spears for the Ashigaru.

How exactly do you think you 'put' a ..experienced..sometimes more experienced, samurai down [or any opponent for that matter] ....without disabling a weak spot, an experienced swordsman will kill you very quickly.. Japanese or any other.
Melee ?... a properly wielded katana makes a whole lot of space real quick....and is an excellent melee weapon.

Have you done any sword training?..can you use a Katana?..do you own and use one?...your answers suggest not.
Yes to all for me.

When the battle progressed further, the Samurai went purposely looking for a skilled opponent to test his worth or to take his head for reward...or favour..not just killing peasants.

Peasants usually killed peasants...Samurai killed Samurai...the strict social order also bled into the battle procedures..for so long...so to speak.

Not been funny ,but,.....

Try the works of Dr Stephen Turnbull...they are quite informative.:thumb
Samurai Warfare....and his other informative works.

Then ...Miyamoto Musashi ....Gorin no sho
Yamamoto Tsunemoto Hagakure. ..two of my favourites....
the five rings is a interesting read
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