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| Knives, Swords & Axes Survival knives, multi-tools, gerber, buck, cold steel, leather man..... |
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10-30-2009, 01:30 AM
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 There are too few of us in the hobby anymore as it is to escalate a conversation to the point where toes get stepped on. I think arguing on the internet is counterproductive. -BB |
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10-30-2009, 01:37 AM
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I have to. in part. disagree with you… lots of societies have named their weapons, written poems about and TO THEM and developed a mystique surrounding them and especially their making…Damascus and Toledo, Soligen and Sheffield, Dan’l Boone and Davy Crockett, the Danes with their blade sagas, the Gauls, Britons, Angles, Mongols etc…
The sabre isn’t a point weapon and the law of the sword is “the point will always beat the edge”…What is considered to be the best cavalry sabre ever designed was done by Lt. (later General) George S. Patton and is called the US M1917 Sabre, Cavalry…Large enclosed handguard and a straight, fairly narrow blade but with an angle to the handle to aid in the slash…Just think, finally a proper cavalry sabre when the horse soldier is a thing of the past… The manual of arms for horse shows the attack to attacking or retreating persons is with the blade “in reverse” the hand turned up so that the point is down and the sharpened part is up to be able to pierce the person and the edge will cut through the body…If taken with edge down the point is then up and it happened many times where the blade may have cut the person but didn’t piece the body as it just rode up the front/back…Also with it in reverse, more power was asserted to the slash when encountering the enemy…The retreating soldiers were for the majority of times slashed to the face as the rider went past as “speared” from behind because they would still the haversacks on and those would deflect any stroke… OP, comparing a katana to a broadsword is like comparing a Model T to a skateboard! Both are wheeled vehicles of transportation but there the comparison ends…They are swords from two different time periods, two different cultures and more importantly two different styles of fighting and with two totally different purposes of usage—one cuts and the other bludgeons… Comparing fighting techniques between them isn’t that easy as one used boiled leather around metal strips and the other used plate steel…Not everyone on the battle field wore a full set of armour, only the gentry and men at arms who could afford it and the others made do with mail or a front piece and pikers would have shin guards and steel covered footwear…Another fallacy is that the nights fought with swords—they did but only as a last resort—they would use hammers, maces, cut down halberds and other pole arms as their primary weapons when afoot and of course the war lance when a horse… Quote:
BB --, go player wasn’t stating that the katana was better but that the metallurgy was not exactly as you pointed out…Scottish and Irish blades were supposed to be better then the Roman ones because of the raw ore they used—somewhat like the Danes et al used…All Wootz (just recently rediscovered by Al Pendray) Damascus steel is, is the matching of impurities of today’s steels to Damascus steel of a couple of hundred years ago…multiple steels, folded together came west from India and Persia probably around the 3rd century AD… Last edited by SeekHer; 10-30-2009 at 08:19 AM.. |
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10-30-2009, 01:44 AM
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I forgot, here is a list of Jim's books and some other titles you might find of interest:
Hrisoulas…..Jim…..The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way To Perfection Hrisoulas…..Jim…..The Master Bladesmith Hrisoulas…..Jim…..The Pattern Welded Blade: Artistry In Iron Historical Burton…..Richard F.…..The Book Of The Sword** Coe…..Michael D.…..Swords And Hilt Weapons Davidson…..H. R. Ellis…..The Sword In Anglo Saxon England Ffoulkes…..Charles…..Sword, Lance And Bayonet Hutton…..Alfred….. The Sword And The Centuries Oakeshott…..R. Ewart….. The Sword In The Age Of Chivalry** O'Connell, Robert & Batchlor, John…..An Illustrated History Of Weaponry And Warfare Thompson…..Logan, Major…..The Armoured Knight Of 1200 AD Wagner.....Edward….. Cut And Thrust Weapons Waite….. Adrian…..The Medieval European Sword Weland…..G.…..A Collector's Guide To Swords, Daggers And Cutlasses Wilkinson…..Frederic…..Edged Weapons Wilkinson…..Frederic…..Swords And Daggers Rapiers Lovino….. G. A.….. Traite d'Escrime Norman.A. & Vesey B.…..Small Swords And Military Blades Valentine…..Eric…..Rapiers Training Clements…..John…..Renaissance Swordsmanship La Rocca…..Don….. The Academy Of The Sword Waller….. John…..The Academy Of Dramatic Combat: Sword Fighting Wilson….. William…..The Art Of Defense: A Practical Guide To The Study Of The Rapier Training - Broad Brown….. Terry…..English Martial Arts Clements…..John…..Medieval Swordsmanship Davies…..Jonathan…..Tudor Swords And Swordsmanship Deladrier…..Clovis…..Modern Fencing Hobbs….. William…..Fight Direction For Stage And Screen Hutchinson…..Fred…..The Modern Swordsman de Beaumont…..C. L. …..All About Fencing - Foil, Epee, Sabre Lane….. Richard J.…..Swashbuckling: A Step-By-Step Guide To The Art Of Stage Combat And Theatre Lindholm…..David…..Sigmund Ringneck's Knightly Art Of The Longsword Rector…..Mark…..Highland Swordsmanship Sanchez…..John…..Slash And Thrust Talhoffer…..Hans…..Medieval Combat translated by Mark Rector, Intro by John Clements Wagner…..Paul…..Master Of Defense: The Works Of George Silver Zabinski…..Grzegorz…..Codex Wallerstein: A Medieval Fighting Book The Code of the Duel Bal****…..Robert…..The Duel: A History Keen…..Maurice Hugh…..Chivalry Kirchner…..Paul…..Dueling With Sword And Pistol Price….. Brian R.…..The Book Of The Tournament Wilson….. John L.…..The Code Of Honor Japan Kapp, Leon & Yoshihara, Hiroko…..The Craft Of The Japanese Sword Kapp….. Leon….. Modern Japanese Swords And Swordsmiths: From 1868 To The Present Kawchi, Kunihira & Manabe, Masao…..The Art Of The Japanese Sword As Taught By The Experts Nagayama…..Kokan…..The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords Parulski…..George R., Jr.…..Sword Of The Samurai: The Classical Art Of Japanese Swordsmanship Sato…..Kanzan….. The Japanese Sword : A Comprehensive Guide Tuchiko…..Tamio…..The New Generation Of Japanese Swordsmiths Japan - Military Dawson…..Jim…..Swords Of Imperial Japan 1868 - 1945 Fuller….. Richard…..Japanese Military And Civilian Swords And Dirks Fuller….. Richard…..Military Swords of Japan 1868 - 1945 Slough…..John…..Modern Japanese Swordsmiths 1868 - 1945 Last edited by SeekHer; 10-30-2009 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: Formatting |
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10-30-2009, 07:42 AM
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my choice is langes messer, short enough for home defense ,and good balance for fencing , can be used against armor, and you can use like tool if need.
 falchion kind of machete of middle age, it has good balance, more slow than messer for fencing, but better for chopping  Messer was used from 14th to 16th in germany and nord europe , falchion from 11th to 16th in england, france and south europe. Both was home defense swords of peasant , and for fencing in cities. Easy for untrained person to use effectively. 
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11-02-2009, 08:46 PM
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I've practiced both western fencing and Japanese fencing, as well as a Japanese sword art. I've seen my JSA teacher show the Kyudo teacher how to cut with a sword, and the Kyudo teacher was cutting mats in about 5 minutes. It's not hard to learn how to cut with a Katana, it's just basic mechanics. Most of the older schools were effectively neutered post WWII, and they don't practice cutting at all. My particular school taught a Gendai art, which was all standing and cutting, no seiza. For me, I'll stick to a two handed saber, whether Japanese or European. I prefer to have the power to cut through somebody and not worry about steel armor that no one wears anymore. If they're sporting mail or plate, I'll pull my 10mm out and end the problem.
Jim |
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11-03-2009, 01:08 AM
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For home defense
This is my weapon of choice.
http://www.armor.com/custom932.html. A mere 3 inch piercing of the torso or the eye socket of any potential burglar ends their career. Mine has been slightly 'Italianized' ala the 1900's Italian Foil. 120 cm bell guard and strap for the wrist. My blade is differentially tempered D2 and the foible is slightly wider than the one shown in this photo. That, 3 barrel chested hounds and a pitbull-greyhound mix make my house an unlikely target. |
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03-02-2013, 09:22 PM
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The second point that did not seem to be addressed is that the Tanto point is a preferred point for many tactical knife users because of its most excellent penetration capabilities. A Samurai sword tip design is far superior for cutting through metal than other sword designs. At least to my limited experience. I have not stabbed through metal armor but have buried Tanto style blades and more conventional blade shapes through fire doors with all things being equal the Tanto style blades penetrate easier deeper |
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03-04-2013, 07:42 AM
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A couple of things
1) Japanese metallurgy, especially their smelting technology was greatly inferior to late medieval european metallurgy of the same period. European metallurgy utilized sophisticated blast furnaces to mass produce high quality steel. The japanese were using very primitive tatara. This superior metallurgy was one the the reasons Europeans could create large amounts of sophisticate plate armour. European metallurgy as amongst the best in the world, because it had to be...you need good metallurgy to be able to create high quality church bells. 2) Monosteel is better. The Japanese used lamination and folding because their metallurgy could not produce large amounts of consistent steel. Folding the steel is done to work out and even up the carbon content. It is entirely unneeded with good quality steel. Folding can actually structurally weaken a blade by creating microscopic imperfections between the folds. 3) Japanese blades mixed soft pearlite and harder martensite to overcome the difficulties brought on by their inferior quality iron. A monosteel martensite blade is stronger and more structurally sound. 4) Armour is proof against cuts. Even hardened leather will make you fairly cut proof. there is no saber, no Katana, no euro longsword made that will cut through mail or plate. 5) A typical longsword was about 8 inches longer than a Katana, but weighed only a few ounces more on average. They were light, sharp, well balanced, reasonably flexible, made from high quality steel and agile as all hell. THEY WERE NOT THE HEAVY CLUMSY DULL BEATERS OF COMMON LEGEND!  The idea that a culture capable of creating extraordinary armour, huge church bells, perfected cannon manufacture and spent 1000 years constantly fighting everyone never actually learned how to make a sword is, well... 5) Most Katanas, like most Euro blades were mass produced junk. The ones that survive are the really fine ones that were passed down in the family and never used much in battle.(for the same reasons you never use your ferrari in a demolition derby) But the majority were quickly turned out, disposable beaters. |
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03-04-2013, 03:15 PM
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Two of his blades. The Arming sword is the "economy" line. The Cutlass is from the mid grade.  Let's see if the colors in the blade show in the pic:  
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03-05-2013, 03:40 AM
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Nice thread and some good info here.
When choosing a sword we must know how we are going to use it. The basic working principle is that it applies shearing force and has an edge to act as a multiplier of this force. The intended use will guide the choice of the design. Important factors are mainly maneuverability and balance, speed and energy transfer. There is always some sort of compromise which makes the choice in accordance with the use very important. A long heavy sword will have a lot of striking force but it is not as maneuverable as a shorter lighter one. Many prefer to have the ability to make repeatable, fast blow, others like one huge blow to do the job. This makes individual style important too. Some swords throughout history were made to combine striking force and handling. Those had relatively shorter blades but wider at the same time. It is basic physics. Energy is all about mass and speed. I would personally prefer a shorter and wider blade. Wider will increase the available mass and being shorter will make it more maneuverable than a longer one. Also, longer blade geometry have a smaller (or should I say shorter) so called "sweet spot" which is the part of the blade where, when striking, most of the force is transfered through and not wasted in flexing and bouncing back. Shorter blades have the advantage regarding their sweet spot as it is proportionally bigger. In today's firearms world, I don't see many advantages for the longer blades. They are better at thrusting but I would much rather have a short wide blade to deliver a close range strike rather than having to thrust into an opponent who most likely will be carrying a firearm. As for the dilemma, Japanese or European, I would strongly prefer a European sword that meets my criteria any day. |
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03-05-2013, 04:04 AM
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European two-handed swords can cut through armor with ease, Japanese swords are more for cutting down unarmored men, dueling or an emergency in battle if your primary weapon is damaged or lost. In actual tests the two handed sword will match the katana in everything except speed. 
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03-05-2013, 04:12 AM
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Gotta love the 9mm vs 45 debate goin on here
that said I concur with the others who have stated the japanese stagnated in tech development as to the vikings being the most advanced in europe or that WMA weapons were crude clumsy and slow are grossly ignorant and are succumbing to hollywierds presentation of it but I digress heres some stuff from days gone by  pattern wielded viking spear circa 1100ad last sword to be used in warfare by any modern army  I must say the one advantage of the WMA is that unlike the east when the gun came onto the scene it died out and remained in its full combative glory in fight manuscripts where as the asian counterparts being mostly oral have been sporterized and have lost there real martial roots and as to blade evolution early norman swords and things like that vs viking without getting into the oakshot typology the early blades are based largely off the design of the spatha and then morph into there own deal heres a good video talking about some of the european stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=k6BBq9zE2pY Last edited by FarmerJohn; 03-05-2013 at 04:28 AM.. Reason: added video 
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03-05-2013, 07:30 AM
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The Katana was originally the sword of the infantryman. It began as a sword of the common masses. The preferred sword of the samurai for much of their fighting history was not the Katana..it was the longer and more acutely curved Tachi. The Samurai began to adopt the Katana when they started fighting on foot. Its smaller size and blade up mounting made it much handier as a sidearm for footsoldiers fighting in spear formations. Eventually the differences between tachi and katana vanished until the only difference was mounting..if you wore the sword sharp side up you had a katana. If the sword was worn sharp side down you had a tachi. Quote:
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03-05-2013, 08:01 AM
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03-05-2013, 08:04 AM
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03-07-2013, 03:00 PM
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'Additionally, a japanese sword was designed primarily for cutting light targets like an unarmored opponent.'...
I suggest that the reason the curved blade as we know it were originally made was to cut through Mongol armour.Legend ascribes it's conception to the swordsmith Amakuni Au contraire.. During and up to the Sengoku period Katana was used extensively against opponents in full Japanese battle armour....Seikigahara?... The targets were the insides of the limbs ;joints,eyesockets fingers etc...anywhere that was weak...not the armour per se. Have a look for... Secrets of the dead..Samurai...Secrets of the dead Crusaders....both on liveleak. Also..War of the Roses ..Towton Graves ..youtube...which is not far from where i live. I think you may find them interesting....considering their content.  |
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03-07-2013, 04:25 PM
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03-07-2013, 04:30 PM
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Swords, especially in Japan were a back-up weapon in battle. ""The targets were the insides of the limbs ;joints,eyesockets fingers etc...anywhere that was weak...not the armour per se."" In the chaos of battle with bodies in melee, wearing full armor with a helmet fancy targeting of elusive areas like that is near-impossible or absurd. You'd be aiming to put your opponent down first and foremost. |
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03-07-2013, 07:03 PM
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Really?
There was rarely a melee at the start of a structured Japanese battle..usually a succession of one on one duels with verbal introductions too...not absurd at all ..that is how it was done.
...but the subject is swords is it not.... ......Not Naginata,Nagamaki,Bisento or Yari....  Bills didn't exist in Japan nor are they used like a Naginata.  .they were used to chop down spear formations during our middle ages....especially at Flodden.First and foremost the Samurai were mounted archers. Monks and women tended to use the Naginata... [see also the tale of Benkei.] Naginata do is still practiced mainly by women in Japan today. Spears for the Ashigaru. How exactly do you think you 'put' a ..experienced..sometimes more experienced, samurai down [or any opponent for that matter] ....without disabling a weak spot, an experienced swordsman will kill you very quickly.. Japanese or any other. Melee ?... a properly wielded katana makes a whole lot of space real quick....and is an excellent melee weapon. Have you done any sword training?..can you use a Katana?..do you own and use one?...your answers suggest not. Yes to all for me. When the battle progressed further, the Samurai went purposely looking for a skilled opponent to test his worth or to take his head for reward...or favour..not just killing peasants. Peasants usually killed peasants...Samurai killed Samurai...the strict social order also bled into the battle procedures..for so long...so to speak. Not been funny ,but,..... Try the works of Dr Stephen Turnbull...they are quite informative.:thumb Samurai Warfare....and his other informative works. Then ...Miyamoto Musashi ....Gorin no sho Yamamoto Tsunemoto Hagakure. ..two of my favourites.... |
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03-07-2013, 09:22 PM
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