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Old 01-14-2013, 10:59 AM
LongInTheTooth LongInTheTooth is offline
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Just a thought...is it most probable that O and the Dems WANT to raise the
"Debt Ceiling" in order to cover the added freebies and taxpayer handouts to the IMMIGRATION REFORM/BLANKET AMNESTY proposals...which will put us further in debt[ to wit: Medicaid, Section 8 for illegals, and benefits paid for by taxpaying citizens, etc. It is more financially practical to "handle 30Million+ than deal with many more time that who are CONSTITUTIONALLY-AWARE Countrymen and Women exercising their "recognized" rights as free people.

As an aside...would it be more taxpayer cost effective to ENFORCE border violations via deportations, rather than increase the bureacratic controls of worst-case scenarios of 2A "INFRINGEMENTS"? Additionally, the expansion of Federally Created Jobs via Homeland Security and subsequent sub-divisions therein...with attached taxpayer-funded "benefits" for those filled positions...
have merely established "make-work" just to keep those employed.

As far as any cuts for the Military...perhaps if/when a Defense Contractor AGREES to a contract...they MUST be held to that contract as a Matter of National Security (it IS really in their best intrests, too) and be prohibited from tacking on "alleged" R&D "COST-OVERRUNS". If they "bid" on a contract, they ALREADY have an idea of the costs, yet they shake down the taxpayers with the, "Yeah, but, we didn't know (at the time) how expensive it would be."

Finally, the misguided notion of GLOBALIZATION must/should be cast aside or postponed until necessary repairs to our own failed POGROMS and manufactured bureaucracys correct those errors. Maybe...just maybe...a little ISOLATIONISM in the short-term might resolve some of our financial issues via no more UN hustles/handouts.

Just a thought...if you can't afford it, then you don't buy it until you can afford it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:06 AM
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Obamass is a halfbreed idiot. He doesn't have a clue how to run the Country.
I don't think he'll make it 4 more years.
Old 01-14-2013, 12:40 PM
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Why raise it so he can spend more. I would like to see congress have some testicular fortitude, say NO and shut the spending spigot off.
Old 01-14-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by brewmaster1918 View Post
This debt ceiling debate is going to be nasty. It sounds like after the fiscal cliff debacle, the Republicans are going to play hardball. The article says that more than half of the republicans are going to let us default, if Obama doesn't stop spending. We'll see if who blinks first, the republicans or the democrats. My guess is that Obama will make a small token cut, that will really be nothing, and disaster will be averted in the 11th hour, and Obama will look like a hero, or at least the media will portray him as one.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...let-us-default
To be honest, I can't imagine who in their right mind would buy our debt now (keeping interest rates low, allowing us to get more in debt). What crazy person thinks they're going to be ahead when the Fed hands them a fist full of funny money.

It's like some retirees I know getting all excited when the stock market burps 300 points after money printing(QE) is announced. You aren't richer. That money printing drove the pricing of everything up, not just the **** you own. Every time that happens, we're all worse off.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:22 PM
RickVA RickVA is offline
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Originally Posted by NotARoleModel View Post
Sorry but it covers all "public debt". It doesn't specifically define the Civil War debt.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

INCLUDES but does not specify.
Coorect, but you forgot Section 5.
"The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

That makes any Executive Order on this unconstitutional.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:38 PM
NotARoleModel NotARoleModel is offline
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Coorect, but you forgot Section 5.
"The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

That makes any Executive Order on this unconstitutional.
I'm aware of Section 5.

I was commenting on the erroneous assumption that Article 14 had to do specifically and solely with Civil War debt.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragonid View Post
To be honest, I can't imagine who in their right mind would buy our debt now (keeping interest rates low, allowing us to get more in debt). What crazy person thinks they're going to be ahead when the Fed hands them a fist full of funny money.

It's like some retirees I know getting all excited when the stock market burps 300 points after money printing(QE) is announced. You aren't richer. That money printing drove the pricing of everything up, not just the **** you own. Every time that happens, we're all worse off.
You do know that "we" are buying most of "our" debt, don't you? Google up who owns most of the paper on that $16 Trillion. You might be surprised.

(It's not the Chinese contrary to popular opinion)
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:58 PM
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Either way, things are going to crash eventually, one way or another. So, at this point I would say, go ahead, kick the can down the road as long as you can get away with it.
What's the alternative? Crash NOW, or crash later. I suppose most of us prefer crash later.
Default or inflate currency out of existence, pick your poison!
The entitlements have got to go one way or another. If they ( our politicians) actively get rid of them ( or cut them) , the sheeple will blame them now, and not re-elect them. So the only option the politicians have is to push the problem off as far into the future as they can, and just let whatever will happen, happen. It is starting to make sense to me what they are doing. They really don't have any other options. We are beyond the point of where minor spending cuts can fix anything so why bother.
This pretty much the way things are. There are no solutions to the problem. Balancing the budget as many would like, won't work. How many would be put out of work if they shuttered half the US government? Or the ripple effect as the money to schools and road projects stopped suddenly. Cut the military, well what about all the jobs that depend on that money. You might call such an event, a depression, but it would be a slow motion crash. Then again it might just collapse quickly.

Piddly cuts to everybody's favorite pinatas; foreign aid or welfare aren't going to anything. Upping the age for SS isn't going to do anything. Reducing our deficit by even half isn't going to do anything.

The only option at this point is punt, put it off for another day. The game is lost, all you can do is run out the clock to keep the sponsors happy. We all know its going to crash, why else we we be on a site like this. We have a little more time to put a few more things on the shelf.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NotARoleModel View Post
Correct. However you could make a case that the spending is authorized by Congress on an as need basis.

Geithner is already picking and choosing what to pay when hence the "ceiling" not being hit in December. He is legally authorized by law to do so.
His picking and choosing is a method of not reaching the debt ceiling. It is an emergency attempt to balance receipts and expenditures.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:37 PM
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When the Federal Reserve is buying 100% of Treasury Bonds... we are days away from hyperinflation. Right now, the Fed is buying 80% of treasuries.

IF... the debt ceiling is not raised (and right now, they've spent 40% more than they take in -- 40 cents for every dollar)...then perhaps something more "serious" will be proposed to fix the very real spending and borrowing addiction than just kicking the can.

BUT... what happens IF we all stop looking to gov't to "fix" what the mess they've made and simply depend on ourselves? Protect ourselves - the best way we can - and let the bureaucracies implode? They already are out of money... which to me signifies, that they're not very moral... nor very powerful.
Old 01-14-2013, 04:28 PM
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When the Federal Reserve is buying 100% of Treasury Bonds... we are days away from hyperinflation. Right now, the Fed is buying 80% of treasuries.

IF... the debt ceiling is not raised (and right now, they've spent 40% more than they take in -- 40 cents for every dollar)...then perhaps something more "serious" will be proposed to fix the very real spending and borrowing addiction than just kicking the can.

BUT... what happens IF we all stop looking to gov't to "fix" what the mess they've made and simply depend on ourselves? Protect ourselves - the best way we can - and let the bureaucracies implode? They already are out of money... which to me signifies, that they're not very moral... nor very powerful.
FNMA and GNMA are covering 95% of all mortgages written today ... yet rates plummeted to record lows.

Consider this: I just refi'ed again for the 3rd time in just over a year. This time I got 3.125% fixed for 30 and the lender is crediting me $2500. So after title insurance, appraisal, filing costs we are leaving the settlement table with $326 and a payment $98 less per month. Free money.

Now ... my loan at 3.125 less $2500 is worth what out there? I'd say it was packaged up and resold ultimately yielding the buyer a net rate of 2.875% for 30. The mortgage company had to slice off at least an 1/8, the second seller the same at least I would think. WHO in their right mind would "invest" in a 30 yr note that pays 2.875% FIXED?

We are ... through the government agencies. It is insanity.

Yes, the average 30 yr mortgage only lasts 8 years due to resales, refis, etc, but even given that WE the taxpayer are backing investing in an 8 yr product that ONLY yields <3%? Tied to something as unstable as real estate.
Old 01-14-2013, 04:30 PM
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His picking and choosing is a method of not reaching the debt ceiling. It is an emergency attempt to balance receipts and expenditures.
Sure. But he clearly has the authority to do so. Or the tea party R's in the House would be howling bloody murder instead of threatening to let us default.
Old 01-14-2013, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NotARoleModel View Post
You do know that "we" are buying most of "our" debt, don't you? Google up who owns most of the paper on that $16 Trillion. You might be surprised.

(It's not the Chinese contrary to popular opinion)
Media talking points to not startle the herd.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:48 PM
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Look like a hero? Really...

Old 01-14-2013, 04:51 PM
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Sure. But he clearly has the authority to do so. Or the tea party R's in the House would be howling bloody murder instead of threatening to let us default.
But he does not have authority to exceed the debt limit.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:13 PM
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IMO, we should stop using debt to fund this generations status quo. The only legitimate reason to add debt is to defend the country from imminent invasion.

I don't care if people loose homes, healthcare or their luxury foods. Why are current Americans entitled to luxuries our forefathers did not have?

Our current system has made promises it cannot keep, it's time to pay the piper and suck it up. If it isn't right at home, it isn't right on the government level. I hope we default and are forced to endure our reality and stop this generational theft of prosperity and liberties.
Old 01-14-2013, 07:12 PM
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You do know that "we" are buying most of "our" debt, don't you?
Yes, I did.

The average "investor" however, isn't making the active decision to fund govt debt. It's largely fund managers and the like who are deciding that govt debt falls into the safe low earning general category, which seems unrealistically optimistic.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:34 PM
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wrong just becasue we dont raise the debt ceiling does not mean we will default..
ss will still be paid
Military will still get paid..
only the gov't shuts down
EPA
Department of Education
Department of Energy
etc.

that would be a good thing..

If congress decides do nothing. Which they should, All civilians on the AFB I work on will get sent home for 30 days because 18 billion will be taken from the coffer that pays them. not to mention the military will have to do their job. There are more civilians than military on my base. This is absurd. These number's aren't just numbers they are real people and families. To do nothing will prevent at least 6000 ppl on my base from spending money in the economy. And the **** rolls down hill from there. Small businesses suffer.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:37 PM
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I wish you guys knew people it would actually effect. No doubt the military and government could be more efficient and stop pay out the butt to contractors.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:42 PM
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Yes, we are headed for disaster because the debt limit will ultimately be raised. Until we fix government overspending, things won't get better.
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