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Old 12-25-2012, 08:46 PM
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even the killing of an animal was no light matter, the Torah says if you kill a animal in vain cause you think you can, it will be as murder

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Any Israelite who sacrifices an ox, [fn] a lamb or a goat in the camp or outside of it


Lev 17:4 instead of bringing it to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting to present it as an offering to the LORD in front of the tabernacle of the LORD--that man shall be considered guilty of bloodshed; he has shed blood and must be cut off from his people.

Lev 17:5 This is so the Israelites will bring to the LORD the sacrifices they are now making in the open fields. They must bring them to the priest, that is, to the LORD, at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and sacrifice them as fellowship offerings. [fn]

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Old 12-25-2012, 08:52 PM
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even the killing of an animal was no light matter, the Torah says if you kill a animal in vain cause you think you can, it will be as murder

[/B]
here,s one for you VW

when a person brought a animal the Levite would questtion and educate the man, teach the man, lead the man to a repentent heart first
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:11 PM
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im gonna hurt someones feelings here but dont take me wrong

Salvation was established by Avraham, bascially for the whole world

besides a few terrible people

thats WHY Jesus used this against the pharisee,s, He said dont say in your heart we have Avraham as our Father
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:15 PM
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im gonna hurt someones feelings here but dont take me wrong

Salvation was established by Avraham, bascially for the whole world

besides a few terrible people

thats WHY Jesus used this against the pharisee,s, He said dont say in your heart we have Avraham as our Father
HUH?
I never heard that one before. Can you elaborate on the Abraham establishing salvation thing.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:23 PM
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HUH?
I never heard that one before. Can you elaborate on the Abraham establishing salvation thing.
when God established His covenent with Avraham it was with all his chrildren as the sands of the sea shore, will live in the Land of there inheritance, this is the resurrection promise to every child of Avraham, who live in Faith, Avraham stumbled, he wasnt a murderer, he lived in repentance of his past idolatous life, every where he found himself he lived righteously as much as a human can an taught others to do so as well

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [fn]; walk before me and be blameless.


Gen 17:2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."


Gen 17:3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,


Gen 17:4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.


Gen 17:5 No longer will you be called Abram [fn]; your name will be Abraham, [fn] for I have made you a father of many nations.


Gen 17:6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.


Gen 17:7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
Gen 17:8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Gen 17:9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.


Gen 17:10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.


Gen 17:11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.


Gen 17:12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring.


Gen 17:13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.


Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

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Old 12-25-2012, 09:37 PM
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besides Jesus using this against the hypocrits look here

Jn 7Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath?

Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."


Act 15:2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:42 PM
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The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh--


Jer 9:26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the desert in distant places. [fn] For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart."


read this close

So Joshua made flint knives and circumcised the Israelites at Gibeath Haaraloth. [fn]


Jos 5:4 Now this is why he did so: All those who came out of Egypt--all the men of military age--died in the desert on the way after leaving Egypt.


Jos 5:5 All the people that came out had been circumcised, but all the people born in the desert during the journey from Egypt had not.


Jos 5:6 The Israelites had moved about in the desert forty years until all the men who were of military age when they left Egypt had died, since they had not obeyed the LORD. For the LORD had sworn to them that they would not see the land that he had solemnly promised their fathers to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey.


Jos 5:7 So he raised up their sons in their place, and these were the ones Joshua circumcised. They were still uncircumcised because they had not been circumcised on the way.


Jos 5:8 And after the whole nation had been circumcised, they remained where they were in camp until they were healed.


Jos 5:9 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Today I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." So the place has been called Gilgal [fn] to this day.
Jos 5:10 On the evening of the fourteenth day of the month, while camped at Gilgal on the plains of Jericho, the Israelites celebrated the Passover.


Jos 5:11 The day after the Passover, that very day, they ate some of the produce of the land: unleavened bread and roasted grain.


Jos 5:12 The manna stopped the day after [fn] they ate this food from the land; there was no longer any manna for the Israelites, but that year they ate of the produce of Canaan.


Jos 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"


Jos 5:14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord [fn] have for his servant?"


Jos 5:15 The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:59 PM
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In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into my sanctuary, desecrating my temple while you offered me food, fat and blood, and you broke my covenant.


Eze 44:8 Instead of carrying out your duty in regard to my holy things, you put others in charge of my sanctuary.


Eze 44:9 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:02 AM
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Na...im not in this to pee off, i dont have the i have to be right crap in me anymore man...its just my thoughts and opinion.

been thinking a lot, bout a lot, i have not come here much, im a alone today

im sad today, but this place used to be a place for me with friends to argue with, to cut up with and so on.

But i so allowed myself to get caught up in myself and crap...so many times i should have just said its my opinion and leave it at that.

I need you guys, i may not agree with you, may say dumb stuff but im tired of being alone.

Are you alright, brother?

I'm concerned, friend.....
Old 12-26-2012, 11:45 AM
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im gonna hurt someones feelings here but dont take me wrong

Salvation was established by Avraham, bascially for the whole world

besides a few terrible people

thats WHY Jesus used this against the pharisee,s, He said dont say in your heart we have Avraham as our Father


I have really been thinking about this lately, funny that you should say this.. always something to see this syncronicity.

It always comes back to me how He stated that Abraham was His friend. I think this is profound because I think Abraham knew exactly what He was- everything that meant- loved Him and followed Him - and that can be tough to come to terms with when you really look at something, like the flood.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:03 PM
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i love reading about Jesus cause from my perspective He constantly lived out the correct Oral way

like the sages said in Talmud where they argued over an over whats right? to save or destroy on Sabbath??? they concluded that its better to save and actually a commandement to do so, so when Jesus healed the man, defended his students for picking grain, He was living by Oral Law

......I agree.


Funny story from yesterday here...

My crazy free spirit youngest brother wrote Happy Hanukkah across the front of our mother's Christmas card yesterday. I was thinking ...you know my mother won't speak of any of it.

Well it actually caused her for the first time in my entire life, ever, to speak about our family. She told me how she remembered my grandmother's kitchen and the food she cooked, and her accent... I told her she has so many Hebrew words and phrases, she said..I do?.. I said yep, LOL. And told her a few of them and she nodded. It was an amazing thing, and on Christmas, can you imagine, go figure.
Comes right on the heels of my questioning ELohim Himself a lot lately. Amazing.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:10 PM
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Na...im not in this to pee off, i dont have the i have to be right crap in me anymore man...its just my thoughts and opinion.

been thinking a lot, bout a lot, i have not come here much, im a alone today

im sad today, but this place used to be a place for me with friends to argue with, to cut up with and so on.

But i so allowed myself to get caught up in myself and crap...so many times i should have just said its my opinion and leave it at that.

I need you guys, i may not agree with you, may say dumb stuff but im tired of being alone.
Hey Brother....and you don't have to be alone. And whether you and I agree on things, I'm here for you...and I am sure anyone else would say the same. You can always PM me if you ever need an ear. We don't know each other, but Hey, that don't matter none.

Keep clinging to Him, He loves you!

Cheers!

Last edited by esheldon; 12-26-2012 at 12:30 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:27 PM
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which parts of the Bible are in effect right now? can you think of a single one thats not besides stuff attached to a Levite in some way
You mean the covenant built upon this

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Det 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
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dietary laws has nothing to do with levites, yet God punishes Israel by sending them to eat unclean food in the nations, why memtion that? when there are plenty of other things He could of used there
Dietary laws are not found in the covenant commands. Dietary laws are found in levitical teachings of the law, as shown above. And as Hebrews says as well in agreement with the above.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Old 12-26-2012, 02:32 PM
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and the crowd was acting against the law. They were taking the law in their own hands (so to speak). They were not the Sanhedrin.

That is why Jesus said what He said. he said "He who has not sinned cast the 1st stone." The mob had no authority to go around stoning sinners.

There was a sort of court system set up for stoning, with witnesses, judges etc. Not mob rules.
They did not need the Sanhedrin for this. They did not have to examine her to decide IF SHE WAS GUILTY. She had already been caught.
The sanhedrin was only for the difficult cases. this was not a difficult case to solve and decide.
Jesus basically told them to go ahead and carry out the law on her. But with the warning, that the EYE witnesses which had proved her guilt, cast the first stone. As was standard procedure to prevent false testimony, hearsay, vendettas etc. As any of those would have been guilty of murder themselves, or equally culpable to death. A little hard to be two eyewitnesses to an act of adultery, and explain your being able to see this?
Old 12-26-2012, 04:31 PM
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John the Baptist may have included himself among the Essenes, but there are those who believe the Essenes were not agnostic at all and some of Josephus' writings testify to this. They were very pious Jews that rejected the Pharisee and Sadducee's calculation of appointed times and believed the temple had been taken over by unauthorized leadership.

I read an interesting theory yesterday on why Yahushua kept the passover one day before the official passover offering in the temple. The theory was he was keeping the real passover at the correct time, and he stayed at an Essene's house to observe it.

I have questions about this theory, but he makes some highly interesting observations:



http://www.inthatday.net/Watch/YashushuaCalendar.html




Notice Yahushua never warned about the Essenes, even though they were one of the three main religious sects at the time? But he did warn about the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Hmmmm.....
Not been around for \ few days and am just catching up, seems I have missed a fair bit but wanted to thank you for thhis. It ( the day eary thing ) had crosed my mind but I didn't know wherre to research it. Shalom and Happy New year
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:42 PM
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when God established His covenent with Avraham it was with all his chrildren as the sands of the sea shore, will live in the Land of there inheritance, this is the resurrection promise to every child of Avraham, who live in Faith, Avraham stumbled, he wasnt a murderer, he lived in repentance of his past idolatous life, every where he found himself he lived righteously as much as a human can an taught others to do so as well

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [fn]; walk before me and be blameless.


Gen 17:2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."


Gen 17:3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,


Gen 17:4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.


Gen 17:5 No longer will you be called Abram [fn]; your name will be Abraham, [fn] for I have made you a father of many nations.


Gen 17:6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.


Gen 17:7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
Gen 17:8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Gen 17:9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.


Gen 17:10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.


Gen 17:11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.


Gen 17:12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring.


Gen 17:13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.


Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Standox, do you accept the notion of two covenants as Paul speaks about in Galatians?
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:40 PM
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Not been around for \ few days and am just catching up, seems I have missed a fair bit but wanted to thank you for thhis. It ( the day eary thing ) had crosed my mind but I didn't know wherre to research it. Shalom and Happy New year
Paradox, if you haven't already I really recommend reading some of the other studies on the site as well. I have been very edified.

His theory about the tribulation and the Goshen narrative is extraordinarily interesting.


www.inthatday.net


Shalom
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:55 AM
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this is J the painter basic 101

the Torah of Moses is actually Devarim, the rest is the Torah of God

the Torah is for for earthly blessing, protection of Land, crops, offspring, from disease, whatever etc

the Torah is not gone its eternal

we fulfilled the Torah it says we would stray be exiled to the ends of the earth and be brought back

we lost the land, Temple, Priesthood, not cause of a replacement but because we were not doing it correctly, so what it says will happen, happen

Messiah will come and get us and teach the whole world the right way, He will be King, we will have a Temple and He will lead us to worship God

Bibile in a nutshell
That's a hearty nutshell, my friend!

.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:39 PM
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to the best of my recollection, the whole passage has been up to scholarly debate for a long, long while as it is absent from the earliest versions of the scriptures found.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:43 PM
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They did not need the Sanhedrin for this. They did not have to examine her to decide IF SHE WAS GUILTY. She had already been caught.
The sanhedrin was only for the difficult cases. this was not a difficult case to solve and decide.
Jesus basically told them to go ahead and carry out the law on her. But with the warning, that the EYE witnesses which had proved her guilt, cast the first stone. As was standard procedure to prevent false testimony, hearsay, vendettas etc. As any of those would have been guilty of murder themselves, or equally culpable to death. A little hard to be two eyewitnesses to an act of adultery, and explain your being able to see this?
The test for the woman who had been accused of adultery included drinking a drink for proof of her guilt.
I see the same heart in these men as the men in Moses time who brought the man before Moses for gathering sticks.
So anxious to point out the sliver in their neighbors eyes.
Who knew their heart?

John chapter 8 (forgetting the fact that it is a contested section of scripture by many scholars) was not being handled properly by Torah standards. And Yeshua knew exactly what was in those mens heart.
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