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Old 12-27-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephalotus View Post
I would not accept a gold bar as payment.

It is easy to cover a tungsten bar with some gold. Will be impossible to tell the difference without destroying the bar.

I would accept gold coins...
A $10 scale from Ebay would bust this scam...
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by pthor View Post
A $10 scale from Ebay would bust this scam...
and how exactly would you propose to do that?
tungsten has the same density of 24k gold to within a few parts per thousand. that is within the tolerance of most small gold products.
Old 12-27-2012, 12:06 PM
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I dont understand saying i wouldnt take a gold bar becaue it might be fake?
Its not to hard to make a fake 100 dollar bill. Would you take this?

For me it's easier to drill a small hole in a 10oz bar and be 99.9% sure it's real. Than
I could test a 100 dollar bill and be as sure.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 97guns View Post


THIS IS NOT A SALTED BAR!! It is a Fake!

I knew this picture always bugged me for some reason. I knew the color was always a bit off. But I took that to settings on the camera. I finally figured it out. The color is off not because of the camera but because the bar is not even covered in 24k gold.

This bar phto is obviously taken by the same person. You can see the same darkened outlined shadow in the reflection of each bar in the two photos. Now look at the color of the top photo. It is rich yellow gold. The bottom photo is lighter yellow.

Now that alone isnt enough... but when you look at the "peel back" from where he peeled back the layer of gold off the tungsten... it is sharp. The edges form this straight shear line is wron. All the years working with 24k gold... this DOES NOT HAPPEN. Pure gold does not form these perfectly straight shearing lines. Gold is so malleable that it sort of stretches then tears or pulls apart.

Sorry this bar was not 24k gold. It was not "salted" but a phoney bar all together. It looks like 14k gold.

Here is a photo of the only verified recorded "salted" bar from Manhattan. Notice the color of the gold. 24k yellow. Notice the drill hole (first step in assay). And now notice the edges of the gold where he started to tear it apart... pulled apart, stretched and torn. NOT straight lines like the photo above.

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Old 12-27-2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bobsmith View Post
i dont see why you would just accept coins though. they are just as easy to electroplate.
Because this is how _I_ see it. I will NOT accept gold bars from a private seller, not even at a discount, but _I_ will accept typical gold coins like Maple leaf, Philharmoniker, American eagle, etc...

If you want to buy something with your choice of currency you have always ask yourself if those fro whom you want to buy will accept your currency. Ask those people you intend to pay for stuff / service (police, dentist, petrol station personal, farmer, etc...) if they would take a gold bar from you. If they will, fine. If not you need a better plan.

The question of this thread is: gold is gold?. For me it isn't. I only accept gold that _I_ will trust in. _I_ trust in well known gold coins with their gold contend written on them, _I_ do NOT trust in any gold bars, no matter the size.

Btw, I do also not trust in silver bars and I do not trust in silver coins or gold coins where the amount of gold is not written clearly on them.
I do not know how many silver some old coin contains. If it is not clearly written on it I will NOT accept it for payment.

Even the Krugerrand could have a problem with acceptance if people will only accept pure gold. Who knows what happens.
There are dozens of nations in the world where people simply refuse to take a note that does not look like new.

A currency is only worth what people accepts.

If you buy gold bars to pay with them you bet on the fact that people will accept gold bars as a currency. There is s a good reason why people choose coins with complex and fine motives on them and a milled edge to pay and not simple bars during thousands of years.
Old 12-27-2012, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seeya View Post
I dont understand saying i wouldnt take a gold bar becaue it might be fake?
Its not to hard to make a fake 100 dollar bill. Would you take this?

For me it's easier to drill a small hole in a 10oz bar and be 99.9% sure it's real. Than
I could test a 100 dollar bill and be as sure.
I would not accept a 100US$ bill either. You can not pay with a 100US$ bill in many countries because those are to easy to fake.

I would accept a 100€ bill, because it is modern design and very difficult to make a good fake if you know what you have to look for.
Old 12-27-2012, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TdubbWyatt View Post
That's what he is confused about, as am I. Coins versus bars/bullion. For instance a 1885 double eagle is going for somewhere around $4500 and is is about .975oz. In comparision you can buy a oz of gold for a lot less.. I guess it's the collectibility of the coin?
In the coins vs bars question you need to think about common bullion coins like Gold Eagles and Maple Leafs. Not collector type coins where much of the value is based on rarity. Bullion coins sell for a mark up over the gold value that comes from the cost to fabricate the coin plus dealer profit.

As the size of the bullion coin gets smaller it's mark up gets higher. That is 10- 1/10th oz gold coins will cost quite a bit more than 1 - 1 oz gold coin.

You will find the Eagles cost a little more than Maple Leafs when you buy them but they also bring in a little more when you sell them.

Do not cry a lot about the dealer price being over "spot" price. That is why he is the dealer and you are the retail consumer. Want a better price? Buy maybe $100,000 per month worth from a distributor like he does and you should get a better price.
Old 12-27-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bobsmith View Post

i dont see why you would just accept coins though. they are just as easy to electroplate.
Electroplate is SO EASY to tell from solid gold items. Hold both in your hand and you will immediately know the difference. First is weight. Electroplate will be much lighter. Electroplate is also only a few microns thick. So the lightest scratch test and you will see the metal underneath.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:49 PM
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A small point, bars are allways 24 kt, coins can be any alloy.
Old 12-27-2012, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicdotcom View Post
THIS IS NOT A SALTED BAR!! It is a Fake!

I knew this picture always bugged me for some reason. I knew the color was always a bit off. But I took that to settings on the camera. I finally figured it out. The color is off not because of the camera but because the bar is not even covered in 24k gold.

This bar phto is obviously taken by the same person. You can see the same darkened outlined shadow in the reflection of each bar in the two photos. Now look at the color of the top photo. It is rich yellow gold. The bottom photo is lighter yellow.

Now that alone isnt enough... but when you look at the "peel back" from where he peeled back the layer of gold off the tungsten... it is sharp. The edges form this straight shear line is wron. All the years working with 24k gold... this DOES NOT HAPPEN. Pure gold does not form these perfectly straight shearing lines. Gold is so malleable that it sort of stretches then tears or pulls apart.
you cant judge by color. different lighting conditions or camera settings can cause widely different apparent colors

as to the gold flaking off, i can tell you without out a doubt that heavily plated gold does exactly this. I have recovered many many ounces of gold from physical vapor deposition machines that used stainless steel shields to keep the gold from getting everywhere... simply by flexing the shields back and forth gold flake popped right off of the stainless. sometimes the gold would need a little encouragement and I'd lift up an edge by bending the stainless away from it and then pull off a few square inch area of gold plating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephalotus View Post
Because this is how _I_ see it. I will NOT accept gold bars from a private seller, not even at a discount, but _I_ will accept typical gold coins like Maple leaf, Philharmoniker, American eagle, etc...
so you have a foolish, pointless opinion, and i ask why, your response is, because i can. great. not that i'm arguing that you arent free to have your own opinion, but most people have a WHY behind them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicdotcom View Post
Electroplate is SO EASY to tell from solid gold items. Hold both in your hand and you will immediately know the difference. First is weight. Electroplate will be much lighter. Electroplate is also only a few microns thick. So the lightest scratch test and you will see the metal underneath.
electroplate isnt any lighter than gold if it's plated onto a metal that is the same density. furthermore electroplate doesnt HAVE to be microns thick, it could be inches thick in theory - barring the exceptions i mentioned earlier in this thread.
Old 12-27-2012, 05:06 PM
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Keep it simple buy coins. Many have their reasons for buying gold. I am still of the mind that silver dimes will be the most tradable in a barter economy.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsmith View Post
you cant judge by color. different lighting conditions or camera settings can cause widely different apparent colors

as to the gold flaking off, i can tell you without out a doubt that heavily plated gold does exactly this.
Exactly why I didn't use the color as the main reason for my suspisions. It just gave a "hmmm" thought. It was in fact the gold tearing like an aluminum can that really proved it. I don't know if it was 14k gold or eletroplated but it did not open up like pure gold for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsmith View Post
electroplate isnt any lighter than gold if it's plated onto a metal that is the same density. furthermore electroplate doesnt HAVE to be microns thick, it could be inches thick in theory - barring the exceptions i mentioned earlier in this thread.
Theoretically true. But only a few metals have near same density as Gold. Tungsten for example is not generally able to be electroplated (without very expensive machinery and processing). And yes electro plating can theoretically be inches thick if you have the decades it would take to do so. Even HGE (heavy gold eletroplate) is only 2 1/2 microns thick.
Old 12-27-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsmith View Post

so you have a foolish, pointless opinion,...
Go out to the street and ask people if they sell you something for a gold bar.

Try the same with gold coins.

Gold becomes worthless if you own it in a form that is not accepted as a currency by those from who you want to buy...

I do not trust a gold bar and will not accept it. You could argue with me till the end of the world, I will not accept a gold bar from you. My personal opinion is indeed irrelevant to you, but you should check if there are more people around that are afraid of being cheated by those that offer gold bars to them. I will not scratch gold bars or drill holes in them, I will just refuse them and ask you to come back with gold coins or go somewhere else.

I will also not accept any old coins with some silver contend that is not clearly written on them. I don't have enough knowledge about old coins and I'm not interested to proof the silver content to others If I want to reuse the coins, so for me those coins have zero value.
Old 12-27-2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicdotcom View Post
Exactly why I didn't use the color as the main reason for my suspisions. It just gave a "hmmm" thought. It was in fact the gold tearing like an aluminum can that really proved it. I don't know if it was 14k gold or eletroplated but it did not open up like pure gold for sure.back to my previous statement, gold plated on a dissimilar metal WILL tear just like that 24k gold

Theoretically true. But only a few metals have near same density as Gold. Tungsten for example is not generally able to be electroplated (without very expensive machinery and processing). And yes electro plating can theoretically be inches thick if you have the decades it would take to do so. Even HGE (heavy gold eletroplate) is only 2 1/2 microns thick.
tungsten isnt hard to electroplate, the problem is when you go to a thickness of much over maybe 50 microns the dissimilar physical properties of the metals leads to defects in the coating.

thick coatings really dont take that long. it's just a function of current. remember electroforming is nothing but thick electroplate. there have been some declassified blurbs about electroformed structures being cm thick for nuclear weapons parts...
Old 12-27-2012, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsmith View Post
back to my previous statement, gold plated on a dissimilar metal WILL tear just like that 24k gold
*Firstly, please don't take this as an argument. I am just trying to inform people of the differences though our interactions.*

It may flake like gold but it is very difficult to match the malliability properties and keep the heft of pure gold. Aluminum comes close but does not weigh nearly as much as gold. Silver is another metal but again does not have the weight of gold. I have been working with gold for decades (as a hobby and profession) and I can guarantee you that no amount of plated metal will have that amount of malleability. Almost like tearing open clay or play-doh.

Here is a photo with the areas highlighted to illustrate my point. Notice in the top photo that the bends in the metal do not indicate pure gold. See how perfectly curved they are? Pure gold doesn't do this often. Look at the bottom photo and see how the gold "Bunches up" at when it is peeled back. THIS is indicative of pure gold. Also note the "feathering" of the pure gold where it is torn on the bottom photo. This is because the gold is so mailable (bendable and stretchable). In the top photo, the shear lines are so straight like a tin of aluminum sardines. Not like pure gold.



Old 12-27-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by vicdotcom View Post
*Firstly, please don't take this as an argument. I am just trying to inform people of the differences though our interactions.*
agreed.
our experiences seem to be different, leading to different opinions,. i will post back tomorrow with photos of 24k gold i have personally dealt with, with thick plating onto a dissimilar metal that behaves exactly as you claim gold doesnt.
Old 12-27-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephalotus View Post

If you want to buy something with your choice of currency you have to always ask yourself if those from whom you want to buy will accept your currency. Ask those people you intend to pay for stuff / service (police, dentist, petrol station personal, farmer, etc...) if they would take a gold bar from you. If they will, fine. If not you need a better plan.
Using gold to pay for everyday items doesn't sound like a good plan due to the value of gold, which will rocket up even more once the competing BS paper scam unwinds. I'm not paying for a tank of gas with gold worth a couple of thousand $$. I will pay a few 90% silver half dollars though.

Low value silver coins for day to day transactions and gold coins for storing a lot of wealth in a very small package.
Old 12-27-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lono View Post
Using gold to pay for everyday items doesn't sound like a good plan due to the value of gold, which will rocket up even more once the competing BS paper scam unwinds. I'm not paying for a tank of gas with gold worth a couple of thousand $$. I will pay a few 90% silver half dollars though.

Low value silver coins for day to day transactions and gold coins for storing a lot of wealth in a very small package.
if fiat currency fails, then gasoline, as a commodity would shoot sky high just like gold. you probably wont be paying with 1 ounce bars, but paying with gold might not be as unrealistic as you think.
Old 12-27-2012, 10:09 PM
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For one ounce gold bullion coins, here's the first level of defense: http://www.goldcoinbalance.com/

If you want even more assurance or are buying 1 kilo gold bars, you need to pick up an ultrasound tester (handheld is under $200 off ebay).

The latter measures the speed of sound in the material, which is radically different in gold vs. tungsten (http://www.bamr.co.za/velocity%20of%20materials.shtml).

So it is easy to determine if you have a tungsten bar, without the necessity of _any_ destructive testing.
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono View Post
Using gold to pay for everyday items doesn't sound like a good plan due to the value of gold, which will rocket up even more once the competing BS paper scam unwinds. I'm not paying for a tank of gas with gold worth a couple of thousand $$. I will pay a few 90% silver half dollars though.

Low value silver coins for day to day transactions and gold coins for storing a lot of wealth in a very small package.
Do you really believe that the gold/silver vs. goods ratio will be similar to today?

I VERY much doubt this. A gold coin with 1/10th of an ounce will buy you 2-3 tank fillings TODAY, I assume that you will be very happy if you get on tank full of gasoline for 1/10th ounces of gold in a SHTF scenario. Maybe the rate will be 1/10th ounce gold = 1 liter. Maybe you will need ALL your silver coins just to fill half of your gas tank.

Depends on the scarcity of gasoline in that scenario.

In Somalia 1 bread = 0,1g gold. In US dollar value we are talking about 1 bread costing 5,50 US$ in gold in Somalia. So gold lost around 90% of its value compared to goods in Somalia and this is with a solid international gold market available next door. The gold vs. food ratio is very different when food/goods are scarce in a crises.
You can NOT buy bread with silver coins in Somalia, they have zero value over there.

Nobody "needs" a gold bar or a gold coin.
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