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Old 12-22-2012, 12:19 PM
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I would love to learn how to defend myself in an unarmed encounter, but I'm not fully convinced that traditional martial arts (or even the newer ones) are for me. My mom enrolled me in tae kwon do when I was getting beat up by bullies in the fourth grade. It didn't help. I started taking tae kwon do again as a teenager. It just didn't seem very practical. I have talked to people who study MMA. They spend a lot of money and attend class every week.

I want fighting to save my life, not become my life.

The cynical part of me is concerned that if someone makes a living by teaching me martial arts and charging me every month, the best way to continue making a living is to string me along and convince me that I will be killed if I quit taking his/her class. Are there no unarmed self defense courses that are set up like firearms courses where I can train for a few days, learn a ton and then practice on my own? It seems that if the military can give troops a decent crash course in a few months, there should be something that someone can teach a civilian without requiring years of martial arts at $90 a month.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

PS, sorry if I offended any. I'm sure I must have, I just don't have the time or money to devote a significant portion of my life to martial arts.
Old 12-22-2012, 12:44 PM
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carry a can of pepper spray, is the best advice i can give you
Old 12-22-2012, 12:53 PM
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great advice, I don't leave home without it. I'm just trying to learn a bit more.
Old 12-22-2012, 01:38 PM
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self defense is a mind set.......if the traditional martial arts are not reaching you....why do you think there is a short cut???
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:44 PM
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Try Boxing lessons
Old 12-22-2012, 01:53 PM
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Just an opinion based on experiences from the school yard, military and prison (not as an inmate)...this is mostly observation because being smart enough to anticipate a problem and avoiding it, leaving before there's trouble, reading people are better skills. (The one thing I learned is I don't ever want to get into a 'fight' again, I'm not ready for it, I'd never be ready for it in all circumstances, and it's so much easier to avoid problem people and problem areas during problem times. Besides, carrying a concealed weapon in public makes me especially cautious. You can't and shouldn't get in a fight when armed, the gun can come loose, it can escalate.)

Fancy pajama dances (Most Asian martial arts) are laughable. As you noted, they're selling a BS philosophy that was worthless and despite their 'thousands of years of tradition', drunk, out of shape British soldiers and US Marines kicked their butts easily. Heck, even the Boxers with all their martial arts got stomped even in hand to hand combat by soldiers, sailors and Marines of multiple nations.

With the exception of Muay Thai (incorrectly called Kick Boxing), those fancy pajama dances will give you enough confidence to either beat someone you would have beaten without those 'skills' or else get you in a world of hurt with a street thug. An EXPERIENCED street thug who has mouthed off to his mother's boyfriends and gotten cuffed in the back of the head, and decked at times, but keeps coming back, and who has gotten into street brawls on a regular basis, whether he's a black kid from Compton or a pale Ruskie transplant in Philly is going to beat a fancy pajama dancer contrary to what fancy pajama dancer movies show. A true thug is living that life of fighting and scuffles and that's not something most of us can compete with. MMA guys do a wonderful job against them. Some boxers can hang in there as well...but that's an extrodinary commitment and a lifestyle change.

When I was young, in my teens I'd a few friends who were rugged. We sparred and I learned techniques. This provided much confidence and that got me out of many situations simply because regular bullies generally want easy marks, and I didn't hang out with thugs or go in thug areas.

You want to simply avoid hand to hand combat whenever possible. An authorized use of force is one thing, but getting in a fight without a way of it being ended, with no rounds, no limitations is too dangerous. If you're good you can harm someone permanently, if that person is good they can do some serious damage to you and there's no bell, no officials, no fight doctors.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phineas Dregg View Post
I would love to learn how to defend myself in an unarmed encounter, but I'm not fully convinced that traditional martial arts (or even the newer ones) are for me. My mom enrolled me in tae kwon do when I was getting beat up by bullies in the fourth grade. It didn't help. I started taking tae kwon do again as a teenager. It just didn't seem very practical. I have talked to people who study MMA. They spend a lot of money and attend class every week.

I want fighting to save my life, not become my life.

The cynical part of me is concerned that if someone makes a living by teaching me martial arts and charging me every month, the best way to continue making a living is to string me along and convince me that I will be killed if I quit taking his/her class. Are there no unarmed self defense courses that are set up like firearms courses where I can train for a few days, learn a ton and then practice on my own? It seems that if the military can give troops a decent crash course in a few months, there should be something that someone can teach a civilian without requiring years of martial arts at $90 a month.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

PS, sorry if I offended any. I'm sure I must have, I just don't have the time or money to devote a significant portion of my life to martial arts.
I can go on and on, and this subject is shrouded by controversy (pride and prejudice) and is a topic that is highly debated. But you are absolutely correct, your gut feeling on "being strung along" is dead on! Teaching martial arts by way of a dojo is a business that has been around for approximately 2-3000 years.
The one main component of martial arts in not taught, and that is developing the warrior spirit within all of us.
Using kendo as an example, the shinai long ago was used without armor and a student was only going to allow a few hits before he/she learned "it sucks get'n hit", both painful and scarring. The student learns to follow through and put aside instinctive impulses such as self preservation, pain, fear, and doubt, transforming the students mind to interpret situations with a certain deadly seriousness. This calm mindset can be applied in both your personal and professinal life.
If it's the ultimate punch or technique you are after, then you will spend countless hours and $$$ in search of it only to discover in the end it was always inside you; just needed to be kickstarted in the "warrior spirit" (for lack of a better term).

"always student, never master"
Old 12-22-2012, 02:44 PM
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aside from the heated debates of who and what is better so on and so forth, here is my five cent opinion:

1. First learn to become aware. Part of self-defense is avoiding situations altogether.
2. Pepper spray and other non-lethal alternatives may be helpful.
3. as far as learning a skill, I would suggest Krav Maga. It's a no-nonsense style that is to help you get out of a position and "run away" or "disable the attacker".
4. There are alot of videos online (if you know how to do searches). Here are some for starters.
5. Overall, you'll need to practice the techniques of course.

A basic self-defense move that uses natural responses:
The triangle self-defense




Here's a krav maga video, there is a method at 14:50 in the below video
on how to escape a choke regardless of the persons size and such. I've practiced some of these techniques with my wife (some in this video and some in the above one) and i'm alot stronger than her and they still work. I was rather surprised myself.




The following videos I haven't watched yet but only found them.

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Old 12-22-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by deadair View Post
self defense is a mind set.......if the traditional martial arts are not reaching you....why do you think there is a short cut???
In firearms training, I have been taught that complicated moves require motor skills that will likely not be there when I am in a stressful situation. In firearms training, they try to keep it as simple as possible. In the martial arts that I studied, things started off as ineffective, and then got progressively more complicated. It seems like there should be a handful of simple techniques that would be effective enough to disable an attacker long enough for me to get away. I just think the traditional stuff is over complicated.
Old 12-22-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phineas Dregg View Post
In firearms training, I have been taught that complicated moves require motor skills that will likely not be there when I am in a stressful situation. In firearms training, they try to keep it as simple as possible. In the martial arts that I studied, things started off as ineffective, and then got progressively more complicated. It seems like there should be a handful of simple techniques that would be effective enough to disable an attacker long enough for me to get away. I just think the traditional stuff is over complicated.
I have read this...over and over and over, and I just find it hard to make sense of what you are saying.........


edited to add.......your impression of martial arts.....just reminds me of the movie......"the Karate Kid"....he didnt get it either............"wax on...wax off"....."paint the fence".......

edited to add......oh nevermind
Old 12-22-2012, 06:17 PM
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I'm glad it helped you.
Old 12-23-2012, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phineas Dregg View Post
I'm glad it helped you.
I understand you, amigo.

I'm a big fan of training DVD's...started buying them as an aid to teaching my wife some basic Muay Thai...then she wanted to learn some grappling and joint locks etc.
A few guys at my work got interested, bought the training stuff they were interested in.
They're not looking to fight in MMA arenas, just be able to put a felon on the ground and handcuff the guy.

To get the best out of the training DVD's you need a partner, or even better a few buddies and some protective equipment, like MMA or boxing gloves, headgear, mouth guards etc.
A heavy bag and floor to ceiling bag is good also.

Check the training DVD's here out....you can type HOLIDAY into the coupon box to get a 50% off discount over Xmas.

http://www.fightinstrong.com/

I did a review of some of the training sets when I was laid up earlier this year with a busted ankle:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=234518

Cheers: Jaq
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:13 PM
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If someone wants to attack me I usually start by saying something like "I guess you don't know who my family are, and what they do to people that mess with them" in a confident manner, makes them think I'm some sort of Irish mob member or something and has put some people off starting trouble, either that, run, or strike first and hard.
Old 12-27-2012, 06:55 PM
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"How did you learn how to fight like that?" Answer "By fighting." There are no videos, books or quick fixes that beat experience. You will get your a$$ beat sometimes but eventually you will get better. The more you fight, the better you get. I started like most, in school, then as an infantryman, bouncer and prison guard. As a Bouncer and Prison Guard, you get a lot of self proclaimed bad asses that want to test you, a fight or tussel a day is not out of the question. Bouncing is probably the most accessible to everyone, being a prison guard requires time and training at an academy. Good luck.
Old 03-08-2013, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phineas Dregg View Post
I would love to learn how to defend myself in an unarmed encounter, but I'm not fully convinced that traditional martial arts (or even the newer ones) are for me. My mom enrolled me in tae kwon do when I was getting beat up by bullies in the fourth grade. It didn't help. I started taking tae kwon do again as a teenager. It just didn't seem very practical. I have talked to people who study MMA. They spend a lot of money and attend class every week.

There are numerous martial arts styles out there today, while tkd wasn't your thing, bjj or boxing may be. Look around and see what suits you best.

I want fighting to save my life, not become my life.

Unfortunately that's a double edge sword, to a extent fighting will have to take over some of your life, how else are you to learn and use those skills in a real life engagement?



The cynical part of me is concerned that if someone makes a living by teaching me martial arts and charging me every month, the best way to continue making a living is to string me along and convince me that I will be killed if I quit taking his/her class. Are there no unarmed self defense courses that are set up like firearms courses where I can train for a few days, learn a ton and then practice on my own? It seems that if the military can give troops a decent crash course in a few months, there should be something that someone can teach a civilian without requiring years of martial arts at
$90 a month.

Buy a book, read/study the book, buy a dvd, watch/study the dvd, grab a relative or friend, and pratice the moves with them. No one is saying you have to take a class, I know plenty of people who's combat skills are self taught, nothing wrong with that, as long as your doing it correctly. But you shouldn't want to half a** this, not to insult you but I'm getting the impression that's what your doing. Learning skills that will one day possibly save your life takes a lot of time and energy, and yes..sometimes money. That goes along with it. It seems like your wanting to skip a lot of the hard work that goes along with it and take the easy road, I'm sorry friend, that usually doesn't work out to your benefit.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

PS, sorry if I offended any. I'm sure I must have, I just don't have the time or money to devote a significant portion of my life to martial arts.

My apologies if I offended you.
Old 03-08-2013, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phineas Dregg View Post
In firearms training, I have been taught that complicated moves require motor skills that will likely not be there when I am in a stressful situation. In firearms training, they try to keep it as simple as possible. In the martial arts that I studied, things started off as ineffective, and then got progressively more complicated. It seems like there should be a handful of simple techniques that would be effective enough to disable an attacker long enough for me to get away. I just think the traditional stuff is over complicated.

Since when is firearms training simple? Sure your basic cc classes are a breeze, but your advanced stage classes are nothing to laugh at, those motor skills you mentioned are what saves your life during a firefight, trust me, mastering your reflexs, aim, engaging multiple hostiles, combat reloads, cover, your breathing, grip, stance, are far from simple. Then you have to teach yourself the mental aspect of it all, such as how to keep a calm collected head during and after the violence stops. If you think all there is to firearm training is standing 10 yards from a target and shooting for 2 hours then you're very mistaken.

The same goes for hand to hand fighting. Are there simple techniques that can be used to pull the fight in your favor? Sure. Look at Krav Maga, most of those techniques are 1-3 hit moves that effectively neutralize the BG. But can you master them in one day of training and expect to use them for the rest of your life? Highly doubtful.
Old 03-08-2013, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phineas Dregg View Post
I would love to learn how to defend myself in an unarmed encounter, but I'm not fully convinced that traditional martial arts (or even the newer ones) are for me. My mom enrolled me in tae kwon do when I was getting beat up by bullies in the fourth grade. It didn't help. I started taking tae kwon do again as a teenager. It just didn't seem very practical. I have talked to people who study MMA. They spend a lot of money and attend class every week.

I want fighting to save my life, not become my life.

The cynical part of me is concerned that if someone makes a living by teaching me martial arts and charging me every month, the best way to continue making a living is to string me along and convince me that I will be killed if I quit taking his/her class. Are there no unarmed self defense courses that are set up like firearms courses where I can train for a few days, learn a ton and then practice on my own? It seems that if the military can give troops a decent crash course in a few months, there should be something that someone can teach a civilian without requiring years of martial arts at $90 a month.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

PS, sorry if I offended any. I'm sure I must have, I just don't have the time or money to devote a significant portion of my life to martial arts.
The "don't want to offend anyone" routine sounds nice yet it might prove difficult providing a helpfull response with such guidelines. Sometimes honesty really is the best policy, even when unpleasant. This is not my effort to be a jerk or be a self-proclamied expert on anything, just observations based upon hard-won experience and decades of martial arts practice.

We live in a fast-food mentality world. Everyone wants something right now and with as little effort as possible to gain whatever they desire. It makes no difference if the subject is martial arts or business or hunting. Anything that a person wants to become proficent in doing requires hard work. It may also require some money and time is a given. Yet in the end it comes down to priority. How badly do you really want to learn how to fight?

There are students in the martial arts class which I currently attend who only practice the nights we have class. And the difference in skill level compared to more dilligent students is glaring. It's not just a matter of how many years a given student has been in martial arts. The effort put forth right now is the key. And despite what you seem to believe, I don't think a given style has a lot to do with success.

It's so easy to find a debate (or start one) between TMA vs MMA vs RBSD. The same could be said for talking about the pros and cons of different styles. Naturally people will take pride in thier efforts and often love to talk about why "my style is better than yours". Take for example the comments you and others have made about TMA (aka Pajama fighters). Granted there are plenty of so-called Mcdojos out there..for the very reason I already mentioned, people wanting something for nothing. Yet overall when I hear such comments it sounds as if that person has seen a poor representation of a style as opposed to the style itself. If you weed out schools/gyms/dojos with bad training methods and under-qualified instructors things may be diffferent than you think.

We used to see this mentality all the time in Muay Thai classes. People would come in the gym talking about how they wanted to "skip all the fancy stuff and learn real fighting". Sometimes they might have legitimate reasons for thinking that way. Yet more often than not those very students would end up dropping out because it guess what...took a lot of time and hard work. My point here is simple. There are no shortcuts. Even if you found the style that best suited your personal goals, etc. you are in for years of serious practice. Hope that didn't sound mean or anything, just a reality check for your benifit.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:56 AM
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While I'm being a crabby old bird this morning, would those making comments about Muay Thai please, please indulge me for a moment?

First. Muay Thai and Kick Boxing are DIFFERENT styles. The guard positioning, delivery method of kicks, etc. are not the same. This is not my saying one is better than another. Just pointing out that despite similarities MT and KB vary in some ways.

Second. If a person wants to learn Muay Thai and claim to be proficent in Thai Boxing, then I would recommend finding a coach for MT not someone who teaches Kick Boxing or even MMA. Over the years I have seen too many students that got even basic Muay Thai fundamentals wrong from not learning from a coach in MT.

Third. It's possible to learn authentic Muay Thai (and correctly) from someone who also does Kick Boxing and/or MMA provided they are capable of showing you the differences and they have a solid background in Thai Boxing. Yet before jumping into some hybird of Muay Thai and Kick Boxing or MMA it helps to understand the differences.

Fourth. Would anyone learn skydiving or marskmanship from a video? Seriously guys. Muay Thai doesn't require a college degree to learn yet it does require a qualified instructor. I would make the same comment if someone talked about learning Krav Maga from a video. And they have! Too many key elements of learning are lost in self-instruction.

Who is going to correct you if a techique is being done wrong if being learned by video? What about sparring partners? The list goes on and on. There is probably a thread (or several) about the subject of trying to learn from video as opposed to in a gym/dojo.

Anyway sorry for the rant. I have a background in Muay Thai and did learn a little Kick Boxing years ago. The differences are there and could alter the results of your endeavors.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phineas Dregg View Post
In firearms training, I have been taught that complicated moves require motor skills that will likely not be there when I am in a stressful situation. In firearms training, they try to keep it as simple as possible. In the martial arts that I studied, things started off as ineffective, and then got progressively more complicated. It seems like there should be a handful of simple techniques that would be effective enough to disable an attacker long enough for me to get away. I just think the traditional stuff is over complicated.
I really sounds like you are going to some poor martial arts trainers.

I think one thing that makes firearms training more basic then fighting is you are just shooting, how many ways can you shoot someone? In hand to hand there is hundreds of common attacks that could be narrowed down to dozens, chokes, punches, sweeps, grabs, etc....

Most good trainers I have been to teach enough to cover the basic situations so someone who leaves after 3mo(which many do) can still have some basics and get more advanced as you train. But even basic stuff usually requires some foundation training, basic foot work, stance, blocks, strikes. You can't throw someone on the ground if your feet are in the wrong place they will toss you and if you try defensive attacks without a decent guard they will probably fail.

I do agree that a lot of the traditional MAs are over complicated with stuff that will probably never get used or will probably not work in a realistic situation. I like the old saying "20% of the stuff works 80% of the time and 80% of the stuff works 20% of the time" I am much more interested in the 20% that works 80% of the time but it still takes time and sweat to learn even a portion of the 20%.
Old 03-08-2013, 09:56 AM
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Traditional Martial Arts Classes are often a Gateway to the non-traditional forms. Sport classes that offer full contact matches like TKD, BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, ECT... will teach both paitence, agressiveness, and the desire to win. It will also install humility and what it feels like to be in a situation that is not to your advantage and how to avoid or minimize those situations.

Non trad forms are combinations of skills from traditional forms. That all are derivitives of Striking and Grappling which goes back to the Cavemen


Classes offer both Training partners and a location to practice that is MUCH safer than in someones garage with the car pulled out or a basement where the old couch is pushed against the wall.

The instructor should be providing both education and practice and fine tuning of the things taught. He is always observing stopping correcting demonstrating from both roles "attck and defense" and fine adjusting for effectiveness

We have class 2 nights a week, Ground and Standup depedning on what the Instructior is seeing from us. We as Students also help each other by providing feedback to our partner ie... That did not feel "right" try it again slower, Or better That was great, I could feel the "choke" sink in right away. We also have several workout partners each class this provides us with different skill levels and body shapes and sizes to have to learn to deal with.

Those things are what I want and need when I take class.

Learn, Practice slow and easy with control, practice faster and harder with control, until it is like second nature. If you ever need the skills Apply them as hard and Fast as You are able and remove your self from the situation.
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