The Romans 14:5 Sabbath Debate

[ann]

Originally Posted by Curious J

I don't want to speak for temu but I just don't understand why you don't believe the scriptures here. They're real clear. The New Covenant is made with the House of Israel and House of Judah.

Scripture is crystal:

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares YHWH, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,"

It is crystal clear, it DOES NOT SAY ONLY, DOES IT? Since you acknowledge GENTILES will COME IN, don't you think to imply that it is only for Israel is a big assumption on your part?
I also would like you to show where you are in agreement with what Moses says concerning ISRAEL IN THE LAW?

[ann]

Originally Posted by Vectorwoman

Oh brother, I did not read him saying that at all. He showed with scripture that the new covenant includes the law written in our hearts.

The New covenant is given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Since Temu appaers to agree they are not in the blood of the new covenant, my original question still stands. Show me where the prophets speak according to what Moses says in the law concerning Israel.

[temu]

Originally Posted by ann

It is crystal clear, it DOES NOT SAY ONLY, DOES IT? Since you acknowledge GENTILES will COME IN, don't you think to imply that it is only for Israel is a big assumption on your part?

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares YHWH, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,"

Pretty clear.

Thankfully, by His blood, we can engraft INTO the true Israel of Yah.

Eph. 2 and Rom. 11 come to mind.



But no, there are no gentile covenants, Curious J is absolutely correct.

[esheldon]

Originally Posted by ann

kingdom with Abraham


Just a couple of things here, IMO

The sabbath was first given for the people to rest.
Ex 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.


Then the law was to keep the Sabbath a feast, an holy convocatin. (calling out). This holy convocation was to assemble at Gods tabernacle, with a sacrifice.
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.


Le 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Le 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:

There is no commandment to assemble at a synagogue. The only time they were commanded to rest, APART from an assembly to the temple, was prior to the covenant made at Sinai.

The land. The return to the land, as promised to them in the covenant of circumcision, has already occurred. There is no new covenant needed for that. It was a promise apart from and before the law of Moses. Not abolished at Sinai.

However, for Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB, and JOSEPH, to enter into their inheritance, A NEW COVENANT has been MADE.

Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.


This is the kingdom which Christ preached. the kingdom inherited after this life and this world.

I personally don't think that the Sabbath has to be observed AT a synagogue, it can be anywhere (where two or three gather...)...so long as (IMO) it is on His Sabbath day, the 7th day...which is not Sunday. Sunday worship is fine (any day, every day is fine), but I don't agree with what a lot of people do, and that is to say "well that is my Sabbath day." The Sabbath, as Ohioman, states is when he goes and enjoys the park and reflects on God or does charity. Even Jesus says we should do good on the Sabbath. It is supposed to be a rest day from regular work and reflect on Him and not do our desire. JMO

[ann]

Originally Posted by esheldon

I personally don't think that the Sabbath has to be observed AT a synagogue, it can be anywhere (where two or three gather...)...so long as (IMO) it is on His Sabbath day, the 7th day...which is not Sunday. Sunday worship is fine (any day, every day is fine), but I don't agree with what a lot of people do, and that is to say "well that is my Sabbath day." The Sabbath, as Ohioman, states is when he goes and enjoys the park and reflects on God or does charity. Even Jesus says we should do good on the Sabbath. It is supposed to be a rest day from regular work and reflect on Him and not do our desire. JMO

Escheldon, you did not address my post? The rest we have in Christ, is ANOTHER DAY IN DAVID. It is likened to the rest, of entering into the promises of their inheritance. 2 1/2 tribes had been given their inheritance, but had to wait to enjoy their rest until they helped their brethren into their own on the other side. It can be any day one accepts Christ. He then and there enters in.

[armourbearer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint

We get all the benefits without the need to follow the law..... How cool is that

So I guess we had better throw these passages out then, huh?

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Jon. 2:5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Matt. 22:
36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.

De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

[esheldon]

Originally Posted by Vectorwoman

Oh brother, I did not read him saying that at all. He showed with scripture that the new covenant includes the law written in our hearts.

The New covenant is given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Agree...

But if I might add, IMO, that New Covenant hasn't happened yet. The Israelites were given over to the nations to be a light (Isaiah 49:6) to them and when the fullness of the gentiles occurs (Romans 11:25), He will return and ALL Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) and that is when sins will be remembered no more (Romans 11:27).

[ann]

Originally Posted by temu

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares YHWH, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,"

Pretty clear.

Thankfully, by His blood, we can engraft INTO the true Israel of Yah.

Eph. 2 and Rom. 11 come to mind.



But no, there are no gentile covenants, Curious J is absolutely correct.

LOL, Noah as well as Abraham was a Gentile.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

You might want to rethink that.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

[ann]

Originally Posted by esheldon

Agree...

But if I might add, IMO, that New Covenant hasn't happened yet. The Israelites were given over to the nations to be a light (Isaiah 49:6) to them and when the fullness of the gentiles occurs (Romans 11:25), He will return and ALL Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) and that is when sins will be remembered no more (Romans 11:27).

Where is this spoken of by Moses? This is not what Moses says concerning Israel is it?

[esheldon]

Originally Posted by The Saint

I dont know any Christians who have been convicted by the Holly Spirit to follow mosaic law.

I thought I was clear on that one.

did you want a larger font?

Saint, I do have to say that you do know of some and of course there are those you don't know...whether you agree with them or even really like them....

I grew up RCC, then went non-denom, and now convicted by the Ruach HaKodesh to follow His instructions.

Some others would be my Rabbi who used to be a Protestant,

Jim Staley, yeah I know

Rick Rude, Mark Biltz...there are actually quit a bit.

IMO, I honestly feel you are already following some of His instructions because those things you refrain from (like murder, adultery, marrying your sister, tithing, denying charity to the poor, etc) are His instructions to us and I am sure you follow them...whether you affirm they are His instructions and because they come from the Torah or not.

Cheers!

[ann]

Originally Posted by esheldon

Don't forget, Hebrews 8:8 witnesses to this...

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent service, inasmuch as He is also Mediatorof a better covenant, which was constituted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says, “See, the days are coming,” says יהוה, “when I shall conclude with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah a renewed covenant,
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Mitsrayim, because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them,” says יהוה.
10 “Because this is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws in their mind, and I shall write them on their hearts, and I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

He is going to renew it but not according to it?

[esheldon]

Something I read to day in The Book of Jubilees:

051 - The Messianic Woes (xxiii. 18-25).

18. Behold the earth will be destroyed on account of all their works, and there will be no seed of the vine, and no oil; for their works are altogether faithless, and they will all perish together, beasts and cattle and birds, and all the fish of the sea,*1 on account of the children of men. 19. And they will strive one with another, the young with the old, and the old with the young, the poor with the rich, and the lowly with the great, and the beggar with the prince,*2 on account of the law and the covenant;*3 for they have forgotten commandment, and covenant, and feasts, and months, and Sabbaths, and jubilees, and all judgments. 20. And they will stand (with bows and) swords and war to turn them back into the way;*4 but they will not return until much blood hath been shed on the earth, one by another.*5 21. And those who have escaped will not return from their wickedness to the way of righteousness, but they will all exalt themselves to deceit and wealth, that they may each take all that is his neighbour's, and they will name the great name, but not in truth and not in righteousness, and they will defile the holy of holies with their uncleanness and the corruption of their pollution.*6 22. And a great punishment will befall the deeds of this generation from the Lord, and He will give them over to the sword and to judgment and to captivity, and to be plundered and devoured. 23. And He will wake up against them the sinners of the Gentiles, who have neither mercy nor compassion, and who will respect the person of none, neither old nor young, nor any one, for they are more wicked and strong to do evil than all the children of men.

And they will use violence against Israel and transgression against Jacob,
And much blood will be shed upon the earth,
And there will be none to gather and none to bury.*1
24. In those days they will cry aloud,
And call and pray that they may be saved from the hand of the sinners, the Gentiles;*2
But none will be saved.
25. And the heads of the children will be white with grey hair,*3
And a child of three weeks will appear old like a man of one hundred

052 - Renewed Study of the Law followed by a Renewal of Mankind. The Messianic Kingdom and the Blessedness of the Righteous (xxiii. 26-32; cf. Isa. lxv. 17 ff.

26. And in those days the children will begin to study the laws,
And to seek the commandments,
And to return to the path of righteousness.
27. And the days will begin to grow many and increase amongst those children of men,
Till their days draw nigh to one thousand years,*1
And to a greater number of years than (before) was the number of the days.
28. And there will be no old man
Nor one who is not satisfied with his days,
For all will be (as) children and youths.*2
29. And all their days they will complete and live in peace and in joy,*3
And there will be no Satan*4 nor any evil destroyer;
For all their days will be days of blessing and healing,*5
30. And at that time the Lord will heal His servants,
And they will rise up*6 and see*7 great peace,
And drive out their adversaries.
And the righteous will see and be thankful,
And rejoice with joy for ever and ever,
And will see all their judgments and all their curses on their enemies.
31. And their bones will rest in the earth,
And their spirits will have much joy,*8
And they will know that it is the Lord who executeth judgment,
And showeth mercy to hundreds and thousands and to all that love Him.*9
32. And do thou, Moses, write down these words; for thus are they written, and they record (them) on the heavenly tables for a testimony for the generations for ever.

[temu]

Originally Posted by ann

LOL, Noah as well as Abraham was a Gentile.

ann, try to focus on the topic that was being discussed, K?

Unless of course Yah has contacted you personally, such as Noah and Abraham?

[esheldon]

Originally Posted by ann

Where is this spoken of by Moses? This is not what Moses says concerning Israel is it?

I think you are really hung up on Moses doing everything. It doesn't matter if THIS isn't what Moses said/wrote, these where prophets of God and the taught ones of YAHshua. Just like the Torah is God's, Moses was just the scribe.

[esheldon]

Originally Posted by ann

He is going to renew it but not according to it?

[ann]

Originally Posted by esheldon

I think you are really hung up Moses doing everything. It doesn't matter if THIS isn't what Moses said/wrote, these where prophets of God and the taught ones of YAHshua. Just like the Torah is God's, Moses was just the scribe.

Wait a second!!!!! I am hung up on MOSES?
Moses and his instruction IS THE GOLD STANDARD OF WHO IS AND IS NOT A FALSE PROPHET. They either speak according to what he taught the people or they do not. When did MOSES teaching not become the standard for the LAW????

Now Moses gave PROPHETIC UTTERANCES CONCERNING ISRAEL. Either these prophets agree with him in that or they do not. I say they DO AGREE. I think men like TEMU ARE WRONG in their interpretation of the prophets. So wrong in fact that they are oppsed to either Moses himself, OR THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. So I would like TEMU to show me WHERE HIS TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHETS LINE UP WITH WHAT MOSES PROPHESIED CONCERNING THE NATION OF ISRAEL.
What is so wrong with that?

[temu]

Originally Posted by ann

I think men like TEMU ARE WRONG in their interpretation of the prophets.

Which Scriptures that I have posted from the prophets do you disagree with?

Jeremiah? Isaiah? Zechariah?

I think the prophets explain themselves the best.

After all, they all passed the tests found in torah.

[esheldon]

Originally Posted by ann

Wait a second!!!!! I am hung up on MOSES?
Moses and his instruction IS THE GOLD STANDARD OF WHO IS AND IS NOT A FALSE PROPHET. They either speak according to what he taught the people or they do not. When did MOSES teaching not become the standard for the LAW????

Now Moses gave PROPHETIC UTTERANCES CONCERNING ISRAEL. Either these prophets agree with him in that or they do not. I say they DO AGREE. I think men like TEMU ARE WRONG in their interpretation of the prophets. So wrong in fact that they are oppsed to either Moses himself, OR THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. So I would like TEMU to show me WHERE HIS TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHETS LINE UP WITH WHAT MOSES PROPHESIED CONCERNING THE NATION OF ISRAEL.
What is so wrong with that?

Yes, I believe you are. You seem to forget it was God speaking through him!!!!

It was always God's GOLD STANDARD, Moses never came up with anything, HE WAS THE SCRIBE.

I don't think you are wrong for wanting to know, but I for one am honestly lost with what you are really wanting to hear?

[lemon_fresh]

Either these prophets agree with him in that or they do not. I say they DO AGREE.

So I assume you can how us where Messiah was to make His own instruction void, through Torah?

I think men like TEMU ARE WRONG in their interpretation of the prophets.

How so? You can't just say it, and it is truth. Prove it.

So wrong in fact that they are oppsed to either Moses himself,

So obeying the law is opposed to Moses now?

OR THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST

This Gospel?

Hebrews 4
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

[craigevil]

Originally Posted by temu

ann, try to focus on the topic that was being discussed, K?

Unless of course Yah has contacted you personally, such as Noah and Abraham?

Well they weren't Jews.