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Old 12-21-2012, 02:15 PM
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Haganah is a fantastic personal protection system. I would also HIGHLY suggest Tony Blauer's S.P.E.A.R. system. It is second to none. Combine the two and its amazing.
Old 12-21-2012, 03:47 PM
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I like American Freestyle wrestling, did it for 12 years, now I help coach. I also like Gun-Fu, nothing like a .45 hitting someone in the chest!
Old 12-22-2012, 05:40 AM
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Kwon Jitstu Do, is my favorite. It combines all of the best moves from tae kwon do, jeet kune do and ninjitsu. It was banned from cage fighting because it's too deadly.
Old 12-22-2012, 08:31 AM
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Just readin' through all the posts made on what seems like a popular 'nough thread 'n thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Think I'll throw up next time somebody gets into a debate over how often fights go onto the ground! Where does that percent come from anyway? Most likely a BJJ school trying to sell thier wares! If ya really want to know the answer to a question like that ask somebody who KNOWS. Any bouncer, policeman or correction officer that I ever talked with thinks such claims and percents are complete horse3%7t.

Next up is the ol' routine where folks start fussin' over how likely one might be facing somebody with a weapon. Ever hear of the Crime Index Report? Every year the big city police agencies send violent crime stats off to the Hoover boys (aka FBI). The feds then compile the info and send a report up to the Justice dept. Whole process takes 'bout a year before the Justice Dept. releases the info. to everybody! The Crime Index Report can be read on the FBI website or even found in most yearly World Almamacs, And the best part is you get facts not b.s. over things like how often violent crimes involve weapons, multiple-opponents,etc.

Last but not least..the sad reality about martial arts. Back in the day Karate got real popular and before long everybody 'n thier brother was opening a school. The result was obvious. Minimal qualifications=Poor instruction. Same thing happend years later with the Wing Chun style. Much as this will upset a few here, I see the problem extending out to some of today's popular styles like Krav Maga and MMA. Too many instructors with not enough knowledge gives any martial art a bad name.
Old 12-22-2012, 11:51 AM
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Default 90% of fights end up on the ground statistic

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Originally Posted by old corvus 41 View Post
Think I'll throw up next time somebody gets into a debate over how often fights go onto the ground! Where does that percent come from anyway? Most likely a BJJ school trying to sell thier wares! If ya really want to know the answer to a question like that ask somebody who KNOWS. Any bouncer, policeman or correction officer that I ever talked with thinks such claims and percents are complete horse3%7t.
Hey there,

I am going to paraphrase this and add some information from a site that actually has the study summary. This "90%" is one of the most often misquoted and misapplied statistic perpetuated by certain individuals to promote an art. I think the Gracie's helped in this. The number was extrapolated from the ASLET (American Society of Law Enforcement Training) on a study conducted by Sgt. Greg Dossey on use of force incidents reported by LAPD for the year 1988. Sgt. Dossey looked at all 5,617 use of force incident narratives written by officers in 1988, and devised a method for codifying the information contained and analyzing it for what they identified as dominant altercation patterns. They did the study again in 1992. In short, here is the actually statistic:

The report concluded: “Nearly two thirds of the 1988 altercations (62%) ended with the officer and subject on the ground with the officer applying a joint lock and handcuffing the subject.” Given this, it is better put that the LAPD data says when officers physically fought with suspects (versus simply encountering minor resistance or non-compliance which required a minor use of force, but did not escalate into an altercation), 95% of the time those fights took one of five patterns, and 62% of those five types of altercations ended up with the officer and subject on the ground with the officer locking and handcuffing the suspect.

Here is a link to the study on EJMAS: http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

I doubt it will make a difference to a thread like this. People look at this stuff like a religion so you will never change their minds. I happen to know of the author who posted the info on EJMAS and he still laughs when people continue to argue about this statistic. For what it's worth.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:37 PM
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I studied TKD and found my instructor was fairly practical about it. Learn the katas so you get muscle memory, learn self defence and spar every week. His plan was always do wjatever you can to get free of the situation and run to safety if possible. Or hem pull your weapon and get it over with.
Old 12-22-2012, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old corvus 41 View Post
Just readin' through all the posts made on what seems like a popular 'nough thread 'n thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Think I'll throw up next time somebody gets into a debate over how often fights go onto the ground! Where does that percent come from anyway? Most likely a BJJ school trying to sell thier wares! If ya really want to know the answer to a question like that ask somebody who KNOWS. Any bouncer, policeman or correction officer that I ever talked with thinks such claims and percents are complete horse3%7t.

Next up is the ol' routine where folks start fussin' over how likely one might be facing somebody with a weapon. Ever hear of the Crime Index Report? Every year the big city police agencies send violent crime stats off to the Hoover boys (aka FBI). The feds then compile the info and send a report up to the Justice dept. Whole process takes 'bout a year before the Justice Dept. releases the info. to everybody! The Crime Index Report can be read on the FBI website or even found in most yearly World Almamacs, And the best part is you get facts not b.s. over things like how often violent crimes involve weapons, multiple-opponents,etc.

Last but not least..the sad reality about martial arts. Back in the day Karate got real popular and before long everybody 'n thier brother was opening a school. The result was obvious. Minimal qualifications=Poor instruction. Same thing happend years later with the Wing Chun style. Much as this will upset a few here, I see the problem extending out to some of today's popular styles like Krav Maga and MMA. Too many instructors with not enough knowledge gives any martial art a bad name.

As a former correctional officer and deputy sheriff I would say most fights do go to the ground and no it is not horse****. Get some fact before you post nonsense.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:29 PM
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While I didn't read through the whole thread it seems most people are recommending some sort of ground fighting technique. There is lots of talk about how most fights end up on the ground so you should learn to fight on the ground which is good idea I guess. If I needed to defend myself without a firearm i would want to stay on my feet and hope i can find an opening to escape. I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about jiu jitsu or other ground fighting martial arts but it seems like these techniques are based on initiating the take down and bringing the fight to the ground which I think could hinder your escape. I would think learning kickboxing or muay thai along with some kind of take down defense would be a more practical than learning a specialized ground fighting skill. Maybe someone who has actual experience in one of these ground fighting martial arts can chime in but is there any special skills used if you have to deal with more than one individual, a lot of fights that I have witnessed have not been one on one fights and going to the ground while you are outnumbered seems extremely dangerous to me.
Old 12-23-2012, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hmbeal View Post
While I didn't read through the whole thread it seems most people are recommending some sort of ground fighting technique. There is lots of talk about how most fights end up on the ground so you should learn to fight on the ground which is good idea I guess. If I needed to defend myself without a firearm i would want to stay on my feet and hope i can find an opening to escape. I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about jiu jitsu or other ground fighting martial arts but it seems like these techniques are based on initiating the take down and bringing the fight to the ground which I think could hinder your escape. I would think learning kickboxing or muay thai along with some kind of take down defense would be a more practical than learning a specialized ground fighting skill. Maybe someone who has actual experience in one of these ground fighting martial arts can chime in but is there any special skills used if you have to deal with more than one individual, a lot of fights that I have witnessed have not been one on one fights and going to the ground while you are outnumbered seems extremely dangerous to me.
There is not one martial art that can teach you to deal with multiple opponents that is why carrying a blade or other weapon would be essential. Striking arts, such as boxing, are good but a person has to be real proficient because all it takes is one good punch to the chin and lights out.

I have seen it too many times where a guy hits in the chin and he gets knocked out. The longer you stand up fight with someone you increase your chances of getting chin checked. I have put several people out with a proper strike to the chin. I am not bragging but it is because that is how I train that makes it work. Ask anyone that has been hit on the chin and they will tell you they got stunned or even knocked out.

Now if a person has no stand up fighting skills learning to tie up your opponent in a clinch, as seen in boxing matches, can stop the aggressor from further bombarding you with punches and help protect your chin. BJJ, at least the rights schools, teaches a person to avoid the punches and close with for the clinch to tie up the aggressor. There are several ways to take down a person without committing to stay on the ground. Even a well placed hip throw will end a fight and yes BJJ does teach throws too. Learning to fight on the ground will be useful when the fight does go the ground which you might not have control of when in a fight.

Do fights go to the ground?......I have to say yes. From my years of growing up in bad neighborhoods and working in a correctional institution and on the streets as a patrol deputy most fights I have witnessed did end up on the ground. Not that they intended to but during a struggle one or both parties fell down after both individuals grabbed one another.

You see it is natural reaction to grab someone when they hit you if you don't have proper training which most people don't and even ones that do are taught something that does not work so they resort to grabbing their opponent to stop receiving further punches. when people grab one another the chances of going to the ground increase because balance is disrupted.

Also if you go against someone that has good take downs and you don't know how to stop them guess what you will go to the ground and no striking is going to stop it. People come on here with delusions thinking that ground defense is not important but they are basing it off what their instructors told them.

Being well rounded is the key. Learn to fight standing and on the ground. Learn how to use a knife and a gun. Learn anything you can that will help save your ass out in the streets and inside your own home. We are not safe anywhere these days.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old corvus 41 View Post
Think I'll throw up next time somebody gets into a debate over how often fights go onto the ground! Where does that percent come from anyway? Most likely a BJJ school trying to sell thier wares! If ya really want to know the answer to a question like that ask somebody who KNOWS. Any bouncer, policeman or correction officer that I ever talked with thinks such claims and percents are complete horse3%7t.
Right. You know someone that knows someone that knows someone claim is the real horse poo. You can take it from LEOs on this board, including myself, who will tell you the majority of altercations go to the ground.

All my altercations have gone to the ground (because I took them there), but my best guess is 80% all other LEO fights I have observed and helped with went to the ground.

I have witnessed dozens of drunken bar brawls, a majority end up on the ground with the participants either rolling around, or one is completely dominating the other.

In large fights (more than 5 people), it typically stays on the feet, though I have occasionally seen people on the ground after locking up and falling over.

There are a lot of reasons why a fight might go to the ground. Someone may trip, both participants may lock up and fall, they may be drunk, someone gets knocked to the ground, or someone takes the other to the ground with the intent of dominating them there.

In any of those scenarios you had better be well versed and comfortable in a 2D plane, because if not it may be your last fight.

Quote:
Next up is the ol' routine where folks start fussin' over how likely one might be facing somebody with a weapon. Ever hear of the Crime Index Report?
Yes I have. It's called UCR or Uniform Crime Reporting.

Here is the handbook

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/handbook/ucrhandbook04.pdf


Quote:
Last but not least..the sad reality about martial arts. Back in the day Karate got real popular and before long everybody 'n thier brother was opening a school. The result was obvious. Minimal qualifications=Poor instruction. Same thing happend years later with the Wing Chun style. Much as this will upset a few here, I see the problem extending out to some of today's popular styles like Krav Maga and MMA. Too many instructors with not enough knowledge gives any martial art a bad name.
I don't know about where you train at, but my school had a Machado Purple belt at one time but now a De La Riva brown belt, and a De La Riva black belt from Brazil.

I don't think you can get much better training than three generations from the source.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:52 AM
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From my experience not so much go to the ground. But I also put them on the ground so I can sit on them for the cops.

I can see how police stats would be different to civillian stats. And even culturally different.

Otherwise yes you get Mcdojo BJJ and MMA now.
Old 12-23-2012, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BJJ_Grappler View Post
Right. You know someone that knows someone that knows someone claim is the real horse poo. You can take it from LEOs on this board, including myself, who will tell you the majority of altercations go to the ground.

All my altercations have gone to the ground (because I took them there), but my best guess is 80% all other LEO fights I have observed and helped with went to the ground.

I have witnessed dozens of drunken bar brawls, a majority end up on the ground with the participants either rolling around, or one is completely dominating the other.

In large fights (more than 5 people), it typically stays on the feet, though I have occasionally seen people on the ground after locking up and falling over.

There are a lot of reasons why a fight might go to the ground. Someone may trip, both participants may lock up and fall, they may be drunk, someone gets knocked to the ground, or someone takes the other to the ground with the intent of dominating them there.

In any of those scenarios you had better be well versed and comfortable in a 2D plane, because if not it may be your last fight.



Yes I have. It's called UCR or Uniform Crime Reporting.

Here is the handbook

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/handbook/ucrhandbook04.pdf




I don't know about where you train at, but my school had a Machado Purple belt at one time but now a De La Riva brown belt, and a De La Riva black belt from Brazil.

I don't think you can get much better training than three generations from the source.
Never said "knew somebody that knows somebody" kind of thing. Have 3 correction offficers in the family and several cops train at the same Krav Maga school that I take classes at. Otherwise I have spoken with people that have or do work security at clubs and in hospitals. Now and then I even have conversations with policemen that are from other martial art schools. Thier views are not 3rd or 4th party.

Forcing somebody on the ground and going to the ground with them are different things, right? I watch cops practice ways to force thier suspects down yet remain on thier feet, unless they sit down on the suspect or lean on them to apply the handcuffs. While the same do also practice ground fighting the former description seems to be thier prefered method.

I never suggested thinking in a 2d plane either. It's just not practical to not include ground skills. What I did suggest is that 90-95% routine is over blown and that it often comes from BJJ schools.

It's good to hear that you train at a school with a solid foundation. These days it seems for every good school there are 10 poor ones. And the more popular a style becomes the more often bad schools appear.
Old 12-23-2012, 11:15 AM
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To the OP original question "What is the most practical Martial Art"...

The answer to that question is the one that you enjoy and that they train you to hit and defend yourself. Not one just that sells belts and pretty color patches for your uniform.

I train in combat TKD, however it is NOT the sport type of TKD. Our instructor believes in his students should be fully rounded in self defense.
Here is his curriculum:

Martial TKD (yes we hit each other and occasionally get knocked out )

American Catch wrestling (ground work) Slowly introduced once passed the beginner level classes

Eskrima stick work (short hand weapons) also mixes in defending against baseball bats and other type weapons.

Knife defense (short hand weapons)

Bow work (long hand weapons)

Hand Gun training (both defense and shooting)

Long Gun training (defense and operation, haven't studied this yet not a black belt, yet)

So find a school which teaches ALL aspects of combat and you will have found a good school and a way to live in this crazy world!

Last edited by joe_schmoe; 12-25-2012 at 08:07 AM..
Old 12-23-2012, 11:23 AM
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most practical martial art?
smith and wesson....
remember, those who live by the sword gets shot by those who dont...
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cuchillo negro View Post
You see it is natural reaction to grab someone when they hit you if you don't have proper training which most people don't and even ones that do are taught something that does not work so they resort to grabbing their opponent to stop receiving further punches. when people grab one another the chances of going to the ground increase because balance is disrupted.

Also if you go against someone that has good take downs and you don't know how to stop them guess what you will go to the ground and no striking is going to stop it.
+1 This is a very good point. As a matter of fact, in Kelly McCann's Combatives for Street Survival...very good DVD set by the way...shameless plug he said the same thing essentially.
Old 12-24-2012, 07:51 PM
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krav maga, brazilian jiu jitsu and Kajukenbo. this, mixed with a bushido philosophy and seems practical to me.
Old 12-25-2012, 01:30 AM
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most practical martial art?
smith and wesson....
remember, those who live by the sword gets shot by those who dont...
Boy it never stops to amaze me how many times we always see this stupid ass remark. He asked about martial art and this guy brings up Smith and Wesson. Like using a gun will always be justified.
Old 12-25-2012, 04:04 AM
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Boy it never stops to amaze me how many times we always see this stupid ass remark. He asked about martial art and this guy brings up Smith and Wesson. Like using a gun will always be justified.
hate to say it but if im justified to whip someone's butt with martial art im likely justified to shoot them. self defense is self defense.

that said i do agree with your statement. this thread is about self defense but i dont get my panties in a knot over someone recommending a gun. its a very good recommendation

and there are plenty of circumstances where a gun wont be an option. such as an attacker taking it away or you simply leaving it at home when you need it most. cant really take away or leave knowledge and experience at home.
Old 12-25-2012, 04:06 AM
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Boy it never stops to amaze me how many times we always see this stupid ass remark. He asked about martial art and this guy brings up Smith and Wesson. Like using a gun will always be justified.
Yeah and every body thinks they invented that joke.

Pretty much translates to "I have never been in a fight"
Old 12-25-2012, 04:08 AM
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hate to say it but if im justified to whip someone's butt with martial art im likely justified to shoot them. self defense is self defense.

that said i do agree with your statement. this thread is about self defense but i dont get my panties in a knot over someone recommending a gun. its a very good recommendation

and there are plenty of circumstances where a gun wont be an option. such as an attacker taking it away or you simply leaving it at home when you need it most. cant really take away or leave knowledge and experience at home.
more importantly if you can't fight how do you protect your bloody gun?
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