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Old 12-12-2012, 10:48 AM
deep woods deep woods is offline
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If communism worked so well in a community setting with everyone sharing the work and the product from that work, why the need to build walls, shut down free speech, disarm the populace, and kill or imprison the few million that disagree with policy?

Could the answer be: that any action is for the common good? I think we will hear that shortly with regard to gun control and the second amendment.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by skorpion317 View Post
Like I said previously, communism only works on paper. There has never been a communist country on this planet. The most recognized "communist" countries - the USSR and China - are/were not communist, but totalitarian socialist. China has kept the totalitarianism, but opened up to some capitalist ideas. The USSR operated on more of a "state capitalist" level, with government-run industries. No "communist" country has even made it to the "dictatorship of the proletariat" stage - they always get held up at the "dictatorship of the Party" stage, because the ruling elite will never want to relinquish control.
There has never been any example of an idealized form of government on this planet in history. Every government is a combination of principles and models that work to varying degrees. If by your argument communism doesn't work because there have been no purely communist countries then the same can be said for republics, democracies, monarchies, usw.

The proletariat is the people. It is the representatives of the people who govern because pure government by the people is undesirable and likely impossible in most cases. As with all leadership there is the threat of them becoming totalitarian, dictatorships, etc. This is a common threat in all forms of government. Claiming that is a sign of the failings of communism is to claim that they are also the failings of all government systems made up by people where such threats exist.

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Immelt seems to fall into the majority of Americans that don't know how to classify forms of government.
Perhaps he does. I've never had a conversation with him, so I can't say.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:48 PM
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There has never been any example of an idealized form of government on this planet in history. Every government is a combination of principles and models that work to varying degrees. If by your argument communism doesn't work because there have been no purely communist countries then the same can be said for republics, democracies, monarchies, usw.

The proletariat is the people. It is the representatives of the people who govern because pure government by the people is undesirable and likely impossible in most cases. As with all leadership there is the threat of them becoming totalitarian, dictatorships, etc. This is a common threat in all forms of government. Claiming that is a sign of the failings of communism is to claim that they are also the failings of all government systems made up by people where such threats exist.
Communism fails because of fatal assumptions it makes about human beings. It assumes everybody will happily sacrifice their own wants and ambitions for "the greater good." It assumes everybody will treat everybody else equally and with respect.

Millions of years of evolution have molded human beings to be selfish - to put their wants and needs and those of their family's above anybody else's. It ensures their genes get passed on to the next generation. Communism's "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" flies directly in the face of human nature. People don't want to sacrifice what they've worked hard for to someone who hasn't worked as hard. The people that do agree to this are few and far between. So communism will never arise on its own. Therefore, it has to be forced on the people. This requires the power of the State. Power corrupts, and once communists get into positions of power, they loathe to give them up. But to fully convert a society to communism, those positions of power must go away. And there lies the greatest contradiction. Communists want everyone else to sacrifice for "the greater good," to give up what they've worked for. Once they get into positions of power, communists subconsciously think, "I've worked so hard to get here, I don't want to give this up." Communism is doomed from the very start.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:03 PM
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Communism fails because of fatal assumptions it makes about human beings. It assumes everybody will happily sacrifice their own wants and ambitions for "the greater good." It assumes everybody will treat everybody else equally and with respect.

Millions of years of evolution have molded human beings to be selfish - to put their wants and needs and those of their family's above anybody else's. It ensures their genes get passed on to the next generation. Communism's "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" flies directly in the face of human nature. People don't want to sacrifice what they've worked hard for to someone who hasn't worked as hard. The people that do agree to this are few and far between. So communism will never arise on its own. Therefore, it has to be forced on the people. This requires the power of the State. Power corrupts, and once communists get into positions of power, they loathe to give them up. But to fully convert a society to communism, those positions of power must go away. And there lies the greatest contradiction. Communists want everyone else to sacrifice for "the greater good," to give up what they've worked for. Once they get into positions of power, communists subconsciously think, "I've worked so hard to get here, I don't want to give this up." Communism is doomed from the very start.
I like these 2 paragraphs so much I'm putting it on my fb page. I hope that's okay? If not I'll take it down.

I disagree with 1st sentence in the 2nd paragraph. I believe we've been selfish from the start. We didn't have to be molded.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:22 PM
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I like these 2 paragraphs so much I'm putting it on my fb page. I hope that's okay? If not I'll take it down.

I disagree with 1st sentence in the 2nd paragraph. I believe we've been selfish from the start. We didn't have to be molded.
No problem.

The point I was making was that over the 2 million or so years of human evolution, selfishness was an evolutionarily desirable trait. It helped keep you and your family alive and healthy enough to reproduce. By the time modern humans appeared 200,000 years ago, it was a deeply ingrained part of human nature.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:32 PM
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And we have every single last Urkel voter to thank for this. Please actually "Thank" every challanged person you may know who actually voted for this POS. At the end of the day, it is in fact their fault.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:04 PM
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Did this CORPORATE "idiot" just happen upon these ideas while in the "Obama" admin, or has he been in this position since 2001....shipping jobs to CHINA, and calling them our "friend"?



These people don't "love" us, and they will give your job to the lowest, hardest working bidder, in any Nation. Never matters what "admin" he speaks under. His ACTIONS were here long ago...
His actions are probably why he was pulled in to the administration. His beliefs align with theirs.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:13 PM
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His actions are probably why he was pulled in to the administration. His beliefs align with theirs.

Perhaps...





But his actions speak overall of the CORPORATE vision, and its apparent goal.
Get us to trust them.
Get us to offer them MORE "DEregulation" for profits".
Get us to "believe" in their "trickle down economics" plan that has FAILED
Get us to to not worry about them SHIPPING our jobs overseas.




My point, was that it matters not which "admin" GE "uses" under Immelt's tenure since 2001 (or Welch's, before that, for that matter).
Old 12-13-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by skorpion317 View Post
Communism fails because of fatal assumptions it makes about human beings. It assumes everybody will happily sacrifice their own wants and ambitions for "the greater good." It assumes everybody will treat everybody else equally and with respect.
It doesn't assume that. That is the system and participation it demands. Communism cannot fail, just like democracy cannot fail or monarchy cannot fail. It is not something that can fail because it does nothing on its own. The people fail to make a communist system work, usually because they fail to live up to their obligations. Just like people fail to make a democratic system or a republic system or a monarchic system work. These systems are nothing without people.

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Millions of years of evolution have molded human beings to be selfish - to put their wants and needs and those of their family's above anybody else's. It ensures their genes get passed on to the next generation.
You might want to research altruism and the biological, social, and psychological impetus and results of its expression.

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Communism's "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" flies directly in the face of human nature. People don't want to sacrifice what they've worked hard for to someone who hasn't worked as hard.
People today do not want to. These types of systems have been in place for much longer than you are suggesting. Early tribal societies were largely communistic, distributing wealth and goods amongst its members in order to guarantee the survival and ability of the entire tribe and not just the excesses of the individual. All gifting societies have significant communistic elements: the redistribution of wealth through the community through ritual gift giving. In the warband, the men would bring wealth to their lord and he would then redistribute it back to the men and community according to the needs of the men and community.

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The people that do agree to this are few and far between. So communism will never arise on its own.
Today, perhaps. Historically, not at all. But these types of trends were common even historically. Most of Tacitus' writings were directed at decrying the failings and corruption of the Republic.

The individualism of modern Americans is only a recent invention. Prior to that the individual was largely inconsequential except in the ways in which an individual could further his biological or fictitious kin-group. In fact, this lack of individualism was so prevalent that in Germanic heathen cultures prior to and during the conversion period, men who were not a part of a group and did not have the protection of a group (in other words men who were individuals above anything else) were outlawed and could be killed on sight.

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Therefore, it has to be forced on the people. This requires the power of the State. Power corrupts, and once communists get into positions of power, they loathe to give them up.
Now we're getting into soothsaying and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in facts, which I provided and continue to provide. I've already stated that there are problems in any system and those problems are a result of the people within the system.

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But to fully convert a society to communism, those positions of power must go away. And there lies the greatest contradiction. Communists want everyone else to sacrifice for "the greater good," to give up what they've worked for. Once they get into positions of power, communists subconsciously think, "I've worked so hard to get here, I don't want to give this up." Communism is doomed from the very start.
None of the above is a fact of communism. That is merely your interpretation and postulation on the issues of communism. This is why you and other individuals do not want to become communist, because you fear losing your possessions and wealth and distinction and individuality. But none of these things are facts of communism. And that is all I am pointing out.
Old 12-13-2012, 06:48 AM
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And communism is exactly where we are headed, by design..... And I think we are past the tipping point to stop it.

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Old 12-13-2012, 08:03 AM
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And communism is exactly where we are headed, by design..... And I think we are past the tipping point to stop it.

And the fix for it is to get those people out of our lives by any means nessacary. there is no reasoning with them. You cant reason with children and idiots.
Old 12-13-2012, 03:18 PM
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It doesn't assume that. That is the system and participation it demands. Communism cannot fail, just like democracy cannot fail or monarchy cannot fail. It is not something that can fail because it does nothing on its own. The people fail to make a communist system work, usually because they fail to live up to their obligations. Just like people fail to make a democratic system or a republic system or a monarchic system work. These systems are nothing without people.
That just further proves my point. By your logic, communism would work perfectly if everybody did what they were supposed to. The problem is, in the real world, people don't always do what they're supposed to, for a variety of reasons. We're not ants toiling away for the good of the ant colony. There's individualists, there's lazy people, there's selfish people, etc. etc. Add them all up, and it makes for a very large group of people who are either unwilling to or incapable of making such a system work. That's why communism as a political system fails. The necessary obligations to make it work are unrealistic.


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You might want to research altruism and the biological, social, and psychological impetus and results of its expression.
Altruism, on the surface, may seem to be the opposite of selfishness. In reality, it is another form of selfishness. Humans (and animals) are far more likely to behave altruistically towards those with whom they share kinship. Biologically and in terms of evolution, this would help the genes of your close relatives (with whom you shared genetic makeup) survive to the next generation. Socially, it means helping people who share your common interests. If these people suffer, it's more likely the altruist will suffer, so helping them helps the altruist as well.

Being altruistic can reward the altruist in other ways. By helping someone else, they may receive help themselves at a later time - "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." Being altruistic also improves one's reputation, making it more likely for others to cooperate with you. Altruism is essentially "cooperation insurance" - you expend energy and/or resources now, in return for a future benefit.

People are more likely to cooperate if they see others behaving cooperatively. Conversely, if people aren't cooperating, other people will be less likely to cooperate. This is another nail in communism's coffin - because a lot of people can't or won't go along with the system, they'll make everybody else less likely to cooperate and make it work.

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People today do not want to. These types of systems have been in place for much longer than you are suggesting. Early tribal societies were largely communistic, distributing wealth and goods amongst its members in order to guarantee the survival and ability of the entire tribe and not just the excesses of the individual. All gifting societies have significant communistic elements: the redistribution of wealth through the community through ritual gift giving. In the warband, the men would bring wealth to their lord and he would then redistribute it back to the men and community according to the needs of the men and community.
In most of the societies you describe, for example tribes in the South Pacific and Native American tribes in the Pacific Northwest, the gifting and redistribution of wealth was less about the collective good of the tribe, and more about gaining power and influence for the person doing the redistributing. These men would take goods from their tribe members, usually by giving them small gifts or the promise of such in return, and then distribute the goods to other tribes. The goals were to establish a good reputation, and gain influence over both one's tribe and the recipient tribe. Sounds a lot like modern day politicians, no?

Plenty of tribal societies use more of a barter economy - trading useful goods between each other, sometimes over long distances. The Inuit are a good example of this, and archaeologists have found evidence that the Cro-magnons (European Paleolithic hunter-gatherers) did the same, like spear points and other tools that were carved from stones far, far away from where they ended up.

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The individualism of modern Americans is only a recent invention. Prior to that the individual was largely inconsequential except in the ways in which an individual could further his biological or fictitious kin-group. In fact, this lack of individualism was so prevalent that in Germanic heathen cultures prior to and during the conversion period, men who were not a part of a group and did not have the protection of a group (in other words men who were individuals above anything else) were outlawed and could be killed on sight.
I could not find any evidence of this whatsoever. Declaring somebody outlawed was the most extreme punishment, reserved for men who had committed the worst crimes. The Germanic tribes usually used the weregild system of fines to punish crimes. As far as individuals, aside from being the king, being a free man with property was the best thing to be. Free men without property could swear an oath to a man with property, who in exchange would support them.

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None of the above is a fact of communism. That is merely your interpretation and postulation on the issues of communism. This is why you and other individuals do not want to become communist, because you fear losing your possessions and wealth and distinction and individuality. But none of these things are facts of communism. And that is all I am pointing out.
A direct quote from the Communist Manifesto:

"If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class."

For the communists to truly achieve a classless society, the ruling class must be abolished. That is a fact of communism. My opinion of why communists never achieve this is based on my experiences of interacting with other human beings, as well as my own research of human history and behavior. While my opinion may not be a "fact of communism," I believe it is accurate.

This is a good debate! I like it.
Old 12-13-2012, 03:20 PM
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where does one draw such a conclusion, in all honesty?
Old 12-13-2012, 04:22 PM
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That just further proves my point. By your logic, communism would work perfectly if everybody did what they were supposed to. The problem is, in the real world, people don't always do what they're supposed to, for a variety of reasons. We're not ants toiling away for the good of the ant colony. There's individualists, there's lazy people, there's selfish people, etc. etc. Add them all up, and it makes for a very large group of people who are either unwilling to or incapable of making such a system work. That's why communism as a political system fails. The necessary obligations to make it work are unrealistic.
No it doesn't prove your point. My point since I posted it was that communism doesn't fail on its own, but those involved fail. Just like every other system made up of humans.

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Altruism, on the surface, may seem to be the opposite of selfishness. In reality, it is another form of selfishness. Humans (and animals) are far more likely to behave altruistically towards those with whom they share kinship. Biologically and in terms of evolution, this would help the genes of your close relatives (with whom you shared genetic makeup) survive to the next generation. Socially, it means helping people who share your common interests. If these people suffer, it's more likely the altruist will suffer, so helping them helps the altruist as well.
Why is irrelevant. Altruism to guarantee the survival of one's social group (whether biological or fictitious - I'm sure you're familiar with these sociological terms since we're discussing this subject) is altruism. Altruism to help a neighbor and establish a reciprocal relationship is altruism.

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Being altruistic can reward the altruist in other ways. By helping someone else, they may receive help themselves at a later time - "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." Being altruistic also improves one's reputation, making it more likely for others to cooperate with you. Altruism is essentially "cooperation insurance" - you expend energy and/or resources now, in return for a future benefit.
Yep, and so men have not evolved over however many years you proposed earlier to be selfish. And definitely not to be individualistic as you also imply.

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People are more likely to cooperate if they see others behaving cooperatively. Conversely, if people aren't cooperating, other people will be less likely to cooperate. This is another nail in communism's coffin - because a lot of people can't or won't go along with the system, they'll make everybody else less likely to cooperate and make it work.
Yeah, I addressed this already when I said something about people not upholding their obligations. No need to repeat it.

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In most of the societies you describe, for example tribes in the South Pacific and Native American tribes in the Pacific Northwest, the gifting and redistribution of wealth was less about the collective good of the tribe, and more about gaining power and influence for the person doing the redistributing.
Absolutely, but since custom dictates that everyone is redistributing (failure to uphold one's obligations was dangerous business) that is what everyone is doing. If the entire tribe consists of 500 supra powerful members, then you have a serious tribe. Survival is much more likely than those who are not a tribe of supra powerful and supra wealthy individuals. Again, this plays out in the early warbands and most early societies prior to their introduction to Christianity.

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These men would take goods from their tribe members, usually by giving them small gifts or the promise of such in return, and then distribute the goods to other tribes.
That is exactly how it happened and only how it happened.

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The goals were to establish a good reputation, and gain influence over both one's tribe and the recipient tribe. Sounds a lot like modern day politicians, no?
No, it doesn't. But hey, whatever fantasy you can dream up should be sufficient. Yes, it is important to gain influence over one's tribe and outside tribes. Survivability is the goal after all. Of course, nothing you are saying refutes anything I've stated or says anything about communism. These are all very good points but they stray significantly from the topic of communism.

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Plenty of tribal societies use more of a barter economy - trading useful goods between each other, sometimes over long distances.
Yes, trade and gifting. No one is stating that they are mutually exclusive.

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The Inuit are a good example of this, and archaeologists have found evidence that the Cro-magnons (European Paleolithic hunter-gatherers) did the same, like spear points and other tools that were carved from stones far, far away from where they ended up.
So did those pesky warbands. Germanic heathens have been found buried with artifacts from the Middle East. And there is evidence of Germanic and pre-Germanic textiles in east Asia. Trade is definitely handy. But this doesn't have anything to do with communism.

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I could not find any evidence of this whatsoever. Declaring somebody outlawed was the most extreme punishment, reserved for men who had committed the worst crimes.
Look into the Gragas, AS law codes, and so forth.

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The Germanic tribes usually used the weregild system of fines to punish crimes.
Wergeld was not a system of fines. It was the value of a man. That means if two families were in a feud they could present the value of the men who have been slain to outsiders (or insiders) if needed.

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As far as individuals, aside from being the king, being a free man with property was the best thing to be. Free men without property could swear an oath to a man with property, who in exchange would support them.
Thanks for that very basic and incredibly incomplete run down. Good thing Google is so handy.


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A direct quote from the Communist Manifesto:

"If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class."
Yep, just like Sparta.

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For the communists to truly achieve a classless society, the ruling class must be abolished. That is a fact of communism. My opinion of why communists never achieve this is based on my experiences of interacting with other human beings, as well as my own research of human history and behavior. While my opinion may not be a "fact of communism," I believe it is accurate.
Yeah, those pesky humans. They never seem to be able to make any system work. I think I addressed that early on.

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This is a good debate! I like it.
There's been no name calling and it's been fairly productive. It's a nice change for sure.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:19 PM
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where does one draw such a conclusion, in all honesty?
Yes, I'd like to know too.

Thank you all for the thoughtful posts. It's been a huge learning experience for me.
Old 12-13-2012, 07:03 PM
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China gets less and less commie every year. It is a given they will be the next dominate world super power. It's what happens when you don't have Wall Street / Big Bank, "Vulture Capitalism" sucking the country dry. God Bless AmeriKa.
Old 12-13-2012, 07:57 PM
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China gets less and less commie every year. It is a given they will be the next dominate world super power. It's what happens when you don't have Wall Street / Big Bank, "Vulture Capitalism" sucking the country dry. God Bless AmeriKa.
Really!? It's also what happens when you don't have public sector unions or huge welfare programs, but DO have slave labor!

Please take your hat off so your brain can breathe!

God Bless America!
Old 12-13-2012, 09:28 PM
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China gets less and less commie every year. It is a given they will be the next dominate world super power. It's what happens when you don't have Wall Street / Big Bank, "Vulture Capitalism" sucking the country dry. God Bless AmeriKa.
China has plenty of corrupt businessmen and government officials that work together to enrich themselves. They're no different from any other country.

As far as them being the next world power, that's certainly what they'd like to happen. They're still a long ways off though. If it happens at all, it won't be for a few decades. A lot can change in that span of time.
Old 12-14-2012, 09:23 AM
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Really!? It's also what happens when you don't have public sector unions or huge welfare programs, but DO have slave labor!
America, coming down to China's level more every day. God bless AmeriKa.

oh yes, and if I wanted I could get you a weeks vacation for the "brain breathing" insult. I've had more than one for less but refuse to be as petty as wingers.
Old 12-14-2012, 06:03 PM
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America, coming down to China's level more every day. God bless AmeriKa.

oh yes, and if I wanted I could get you a weeks vacation for the "brain breathing" insult. I've had more than one for less but refuse to be as petty as wingers.
More than one what? Your right, we are coming down to China's level more every day.

I noticed you didn't address the Unions, welfare, or slave labor in China. Only the brain breathing?
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