Chloroform anesthesia

[ignis fatuus]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

to whom are you speaking? its generally a good idea to quote the person your speaking to and the post your replying to so people dont go WTF is this guy saying

OOpps, serios forum faux pas..Untwist those pannies..

IN general for anyone thinking of even trying this is to WHOM I speak..my apologies to those who find it a ludicris idea and I do and that have said so.

The Whole Idea of Playing with Anesthesia in the first place, as it was Inferred to its use on each other Especially Outside of a VERY skilled and Certified set of skilled Professionals. Extremely Dangerous!

Also, just because it exists, in survival mode some things could cause bigger issue than they would be of help. This topic of Anesthesia short of a true field medical unit being involved would be one of them. In which Case an individual does not need a supply as those in the group Licensed would be able to get it. Trying this on ones own, is not wise. NOT COOL.
(So, in part to the shrapnel digging folks)

In the event we are talking outside legal issues. You can survival the shrapnel, the body will seal/heal around it and you don't have to dig it out as someone else suggested. It is the damage path and what is hit that kills, fixing damaged organs and arteries, lungs.heart. Body cavities strangling under the pressure caused by internal bleeding as well as the blood loss! So the heart for instance has to work against pressure ((best way to describe it) filling pressurized water balloon pushing against it and cant beat properly or freely). Another thing is the peritonitis, the infections that set in for bowel and stomach content spilling inside of the body cavity as an example.Stomach wounds are a whole different serious subject.

Digging for shrapnel is rare, and dangerous at times. Best to leave it inside, just stop the bleeding and prevent infection.IF your going to do it, best get a Xray Machine before the the Anesthesia.

So in the event we are talking outside the law as in the OLD WEST GUNFIGHT..IF they survive the damage,and infection and bleeding can be stopped...well then we can Talk about the movies, they had better use of real knowledge in Hollywood prior to 1950...then they kept them flat on their backs till the body could heal around it. (10-14 days at least) Moving around could dislodge the foreign body and cause further issues. And yes Ether was use and it was not the same type or purity as that in the auto store, and made people sicker than dogs if they woke up. It also made a few surgeons hit the floor from the fumes in the past. And blew up a few.

[ignis fatuus]

Originally Posted by Prudence

How about a TENS unit? Would that provide enough pain relief for digging out a bullet or pulling a tooth? Those are usable by an average person, readily available online without a prescription, and pretty cheap -- just a quick search shows them for sale for less than $100.

All I'd have to do is find a way to power it, and that's an engineering problem, not a medical one.

After reading the entire thread, I think I will try to optimize my "second-aid kit" (stuff beyond the first-aid kit) for local pain relief and sedation rather than general anesthetic. I still have some topical lidocaine. Now I'll see about stockpiling Valium. Or get my hands on some of the Herb That Must Not Be Named.

This site is teaching me so much -- not the least of which is how much I still don't know!

EDIT: According to LiveStrong, a TENS unit is used to relieve acute pain associated with surgery (http://www.livestrong.com/article/24...f-a-tens-unit/) and also for dental pain. This looks promising!

Tens units are used to stimulate Muscle actions and tightness for injury, using small electric shocks, it is therapy for muscle stimulation, thus relieving pain. And just in case anyone asked it is not the same as an AED for heart attacks.

Medicine is an EXTREME Balance and totally different from First aid, First responder training!

That said no one here touch me but Brandyallen! <--Who knows the differences between medicine and First aid!

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by ignis fatuus

Tens units are used to stimulate Muscle actions and tightness for injury, using small electric shocks, it is therapy for muscle stimulation, thus relieving pain. And just in case anyone asked it is not the same as an AED for heart attacks.

Well, all I know about TENS units from personal experience is that my late aunt used one for relief of chronic pain. There seemed to be some evidence (the LiveStrong article) that it could be used for acute pain following surgery (not the same as acute pain during surgery) and for dental pain. But I'm not a medical professional, never said I was one, and don't intend to become one this late in my life (though I might go for a CNA so I could help one if necessary).

Medicine is an EXTREME Balance and totally different from First aid, First responder training!

That said no one here touch me but Brandyallen! <--Who knows the differences between medicine and First aid!

What is there in between the two -- what can a layman do, other than watch someone suffer horribly or die, when no professional medical help is available and first aid isn't adequate?

Speaking of which: Does anybody here have either "Where There Is No Doctor" or "Where There Is No Dentist"? Do either of those two books say anything about field anesthesia?

[allye]

Our group will have an OB/GYN, a CRNA and a FNP. They'd risk it. We're not talking about modern general anesthesia here (at least I'm not...only a whiff to knock someone out lightly). And ONLY in the event of a breakdown to the extent that there is NO access to medical services.

People do what they have to do in those situations. Another OB/GYN friend of mine on a missions trip in Africa delivered a baby with a bowel obstruction. She was the only doctor at the clinic. She wound up operating on the baby using a textbook and halfway through the procedure had to take over the primitive anesthesia as well (the nurse administering anesthesia was a relative of the baby and totally lost it halfway through...went to the corner and started chanting). She knew when she started that the baby would most likely die on the operating table because she wasn't trained to do the surgery, but it most certainly was going to die if she didn't try. The baby lived.

I don't think anyone on this thread is planning to go out and play Rambo anesthesia in the woods this weekend. And sure, in the case of no access to medical services, well meaning people will kill when trying to help. But I think I'd rather die of chloroform than have someone cut my legs off without it if they were smashed and pinned under a fallen tree with no way to move it.

[ignis fatuus]

Originally Posted by Prudence

But I'm not a medical professional, never said I was one, and don't intend to become one this late in my life (though I might go for a CNA so I could help one if necessary).

What is there in between the two -- what can a layman do, other than watch someone suffer horribly or die, when no professional medical help is available and first aid isn't adequate?

Speaking of which: Does anybody here have either "Where There Is No Doctor" or "Where There Is No Dentist"? Do either of those two books say anything about field anesthesia?

Sorry it is long but here is what I do /will do even with the medical training I do have. I know and understand the cross over line. I am not a surgeon nor would I even think of it under any but the last desperate attempt..which I do not believe will ever happen except in the movies.


You are talking comfort here not life saving first of all, when you talk of Dentistry. Even a broken off tooth at the gum line wont kill you for a long time, but it will hurt like HECK. Would take months in most cases to be deadly.( research clove oil and salt water rinses)
Serious Sensible Survival health care, they kind that you mind does not need to exaggerate. the realistic stuff...and accepting many will die and did in the past. No One is immortal, learn to accept death, then embrace life.

Seriously there are things that can and should be done. Then the are extremes where stitching up a cut over and on top of a cut tendon will eventually require more surgery and cutting. (there are internal and external type stitches..and a sliced tendon may be healed over but does not mean the thumb will ever work right again in some cases. Still some may have to but it really need to be understood why and when to do so, those cases are rare indeed.

Which is why if there is help available even if you have to wait days, it might be best to wait.) Non medicals doing surgical procedures will surely kill some patients, its ludicris.. The body might heal itself if you wait.)

The things you can do that are smart.
First do your best to stay healthy! Eat right etc. You don't have to be a body builder but you should know your own limits. Don't climb Mount Hood if you are out of shape,there is no super survival kit at the top. You must face facts that Death Happens, and it is not easy! You can try, and even in the best medical facilities it still happens, so live and be happy while you can.

Secondly,basic first aid, cleanliness (both sick and not sick as well as wound care). You do not need a gallon of hospital disinfectant as soap and hot water alone kill 99.9% on hard surfaces and many on human surfaces as well. UV Light, bacterial growth resisting oils like tea tree oil or Pine oil (not the scented Pinesol..just the pure pine 5% for sick room, not for food or tissues, eating utensils etc)which leave residue to fight growth. Things like Neosporin otherwise.

Hand washing is crucial!!!

Face masks during an epidemic are not a bad idea, make sure they are rated N95 of better.

Herbs and Essential oil work for lots of things in both cleaning and medical treatment but you should know how to properly use them. Your example of Dental pain for example, clove oil, salt water,even Feverfew, and home remedies. Just find a reliable source and forget those that tell you to hand a chicken over the barn door on a full moon. If they are not over the top, work wonders.

You can do some of the home things like alcohol sponge baths and even ice (if you monitor temperature, dont make them hypothermic) for high fevers and the like. Fluids in most cases are a good idea too. Make sure you have fever reducers in the kit. They also can work for pain and inflammation.

General first aid like splints, and bandaging are top notch skills. CPR is a MUST for everyone! ( and stay current) Bed rest was the only thing they did for Heart attacks years ago. There was no Heart surgery way back. At least we know a few more things there..short of CPR or an Aspirin.

The body has a mysterical and magic called antibodies and white cells as way of helping itself...like in the case were buck shot is under the skin, if you can keep out infection, it will heal around it and enclose it. The biggest issue today are the "fast food" mentality towards health. REST REST REST and give the sick a chance to recuperate, they will if they can, it depends on the damage.

VERY superficial skin infections like splinters and boils (boils are not the same as say small pox) can be brought to the surface with hot compresses, lots of them. They will eventually burst out of the skin with enough heat and time.

Chest congestion, natural and even medical kit ipecac it is an expectorant as well as Emesistic(vomiting)..depends on how it gets used.( and research and print out to keep with the bottle, the how and precautions, compare several internet sources and go for university/ hospital recommended sites like MAYO CLINIC)
Even expectorant Cough syrup can help in cases of Pneumonia and the are things like Mucinex available. The injured often get secondary Pneumonia.
As for LIVE STRONG YES AND NO its a good baseline for average but they are Nearly totally food and holistic. Ayurvedic (HINDI Holistic). Though I do not shun these totally..tea tree oil is great for toe nail fungus for example and cheaper than an RX.

Learn the safe uses for OTC things like Iodine,Ipecac, even Gatorade/pedialyte in cases of dehydration.

Sanitation methods...the Black plague and rats...need I say more. Stop little thing before the become big things.

NO ONE is immortal ACCEPT IT, not even with the best medical care in the best Medical facility. Medicine is a balance, Home care and first aid..are preventative and keeping thing from getting worse. The rest fall under the meaning of life question. Best of luck!

[ignis fatuus]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

were not talking about open heart surgery most likely what would you be doing

amputations and digging out bullets

simple surgeries that require a few minutes of anesthesia not hours and surgery worked great in the early late 1800s early 1900s and as long as you kept your expectation level to that time period you would be alot better off no one is talking about doing brain surgery here

as to infection hospitals where surgeries are mostly performed are super germ breeding grounds all you can do is do everything you can to ensure sterility of operating environment and tools

and besides if you have the option of dying from gang greene from a wound to your lower leg and letting me put you under and hacking it off at the knee what would you choose?

It is spelled ,Gangrene. Damn the Discovery channel and Dual Survival (gun powder episode Argentina)! Both Characters did come out and say "we showed what was done historically , not what should be done now" (paraphrased) Profits and ratings. Please step away from the TV I only argue with the fools because someone else might learn something somewhere.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by ignis fatuus

OOpps, serios forum faux pas..Untwist those pannies..

IN general for anyone thinking of even trying this is to WHOM I speak..my apologies to those who find it a ludicris idea and I do and that have said so.

The Whole Idea of Playing with Anesthesia in the first place, as it was Inferred to its use on each other Especially Outside of a VERY skilled and Certified set of skilled Professionals. Extremely Dangerous!

Also, just because it exists, in survival mode some things could cause bigger issue than they would be of help. This topic of Anesthesia short of a true field medical unit being involved would be one of them. In which Case an individual does not need a supply as those in the group Licensed would be able to get it. Trying this on ones own, is not wise. NOT COOL.
(So, in part to the shrapnel digging folks)

In the event we are talking outside legal issues. You can survival the shrapnel, the body will seal/heal around it and you don't have to dig it out as someone else suggested. It is the damage path and what is hit that kills, fixing damaged organs and arteries, lungs.heart. Body cavities strangling under the pressure caused by internal bleeding as well as the blood loss! So the heart for instance has to work against pressure ((best way to describe it) filling pressurized water balloon pushing against it and cant beat properly or freely). Another thing is the peritonitis, the infections that set in for bowel and stomach content spilling inside of the body cavity as an example.Stomach wounds are a whole different serious subject.

Digging for shrapnel is rare, and dangerous at times. Best to leave it inside, just stop the bleeding and prevent infection.IF your going to do it, best get a Xray Machine before the the Anesthesia.

So in the event we are talking outside the law as in the OLD WEST GUNFIGHT..IF they survive the damage,and infection and bleeding can be stopped...well then we can Talk about the movies, they had better use of real knowledge in Hollywood prior to 1950...then they kept them flat on their backs till the body could heal around it. (10-14 days at least) Moving around could dislodge the foreign body and cause further issues. And yes Ether was use and it was not the same type or purity as that in the auto store, and made people sicker than dogs if they woke up. It also made a few surgeons hit the floor from the fumes in the past. And blew up a few.

So is driving my car in fact im pretty sure I have a higher % chance of dying driving around town every day than I would under the knife of a primitive physician from 500 years ago performing anesthesia.

I love how you try to over play how dangerous it is yes the % of adverse reactions would be a lot higher lets say its as high as 1/1000 is fatal which is 250 times more fatal than the 1/250,000 today so yes it would be a whole lot more dangerous but not the death sentence you and a few others are making it out to be.

once again needing a whole field anesthesia unit to perform anesthesia is a fallacy it has been done successfully for centuries

and you are making the assumption that all shrapnel is little ity bits that can be left in the body I have personally seen someone with a roughly 4x2 inch chunk of metal in them your telling me your just going to let it be and the body will heal with that in it? who is the ignorant one now? yes at times shrapnel needs to be removed and depending on its location will determine the possibility of certain complications and no it is not all that rare to "dig" out shrapnel depending on how big the pieces are

who here ever said anything about ether from the automotive store? you can make reagent grade with a very basic set up and a little understanding of chemistry. that said for those who dont know there are many kinds of "ether" just because it says ether does not mean it is the right one and I would imagine that the "ether" used in the starting fluid at the auto shop also has a few other less than healthy additives

Originally Posted by ignis fatuus

Tens units are used to stimulate Muscle actions and tightness for injury, using small electric shocks, it is therapy for muscle stimulation, thus relieving pain. And just in case anyone asked it is not the same as an AED for heart attacks.

Medicine is an EXTREME Balance and totally different from First aid, First responder training!

That said no one here touch me but Brandyallen! <--Who knows the differences between medicine and First aid!

I would agree a tens unit is deffinetly not a AED or anywhere close

Originally Posted by Prudence

Well, all I know about TENS units from personal experience is that my late aunt used one for relief of chronic pain. There seemed to be some evidence (the LiveStrong article) that it could be used for acute pain following surgery (not the same as acute pain during surgery) and for dental pain. But I'm not a medical professional, never said I was one, and don't intend to become one this late in my life (though I might go for a CNA so I could help one if necessary).




What is there in between the two -- what can a layman do, other than watch someone suffer horribly or die, when no professional medical help is available and first aid isn't adequate?

Speaking of which: Does anybody here have either "Where There Is No Doctor" or "Where There Is No Dentist"? Do either of those two books say anything about field anesthesia?

no I do not have either book

Originally Posted by ignis fatuus

Sorry it is long but here is what I do /will do even with the medical training I do have. I know and understand the cross over line. I am not a surgeon nor would I even think of it under any but the last desperate attempt..which I do not believe will ever happen except in the movies.


You are talking comfort here not life saving first of all, when you talk of Dentistry. Even a broken off tooth at the gum line wont kill you for a long time, but it will hurt like HECK. Would take months in most cases to be deadly.( research clove oil and salt water rinses)
Serious Sensible Survival health care, they kind that you mind does not need to exaggerate. the realistic stuff...and accepting many will die and did in the past. No One is immortal, learn to accept death, then embrace life.

Seriously there are things that can and should be done. Then the are extremes where stitching up a cut over and on top of a cut tendon will eventually require more surgery and cutting. (there are internal and external type stitches..and a sliced tendon may be healed over but does not mean the thumb will ever work right again in some cases. Still some may have to but it really need to be understood why and when to do so, those cases are rare indeed.

Which is why if there is help available even if you have to wait days, it might be best to wait.) Non medicals doing surgical procedures will surely kill some patients, its ludicris.. The body might heal itself if you wait.)

The things you can do that are smart.
First do your best to stay healthy! Eat right etc. You don't have to be a body builder but you should know your own limits. Don't climb Mount Hood if you are out of shape,there is no super survival kit at the top. You must face facts that Death Happens, and it is not easy! You can try, and even in the best medical facilities it still happens, so live and be happy while you can.

Secondly,basic first aid, cleanliness (both sick and not sick as well as wound care). You do not need a gallon of hospital disinfectant as soap and hot water alone kill 99.9% on hard surfaces and many on human surfaces as well. UV Light, bacterial growth resisting oils like tea tree oil or Pine oil (not the scented Pinesol..just the pure pine 5% for sick room, not for food or tissues, eating utensils etc)which leave residue to fight growth. Things like Neosporin otherwise.

Hand washing is crucial!!!

Face masks during an epidemic are not a bad idea, make sure they are rated N95 of better.

Herbs and Essential oil work for lots of things in both cleaning and medical treatment but you should know how to properly use them. Your example of Dental pain for example, clove oil, salt water,even Feverfew, and home remedies. Just find a reliable source and forget those that tell you to hand a chicken over the barn door on a full moon. If they are not over the top, work wonders.

You can do some of the home things like alcohol sponge baths and even ice (if you monitor temperature, dont make them hypothermic) for high fevers and the like. Fluids in most cases are a good idea too. Make sure you have fever reducers in the kit. They also can work for pain and inflammation.

General first aid like splints, and bandaging are top notch skills. CPR is a MUST for everyone! ( and stay current) Bed rest was the only thing they did for Heart attacks years ago. There was no Heart surgery way back. At least we know a few more things there..short of CPR or an Aspirin.

The body has a mysterical and magic called antibodies and white cells as way of helping itself...like in the case were buck shot is under the skin, if you can keep out infection, it will heal around it and enclose it. The biggest issue today are the "fast food" mentality towards health. REST REST REST and give the sick a chance to recuperate, they will if they can, it depends on the damage.

VERY superficial skin infections like splinters and boils (boils are not the same as say small pox) can be brought to the surface with hot compresses, lots of them. They will eventually burst out of the skin with enough heat and time.

Chest congestion, natural and even medical kit ipecac it is an expectorant as well as Emesistic(vomiting)..depends on how it gets used.( and research and print out to keep with the bottle, the how and precautions, compare several internet sources and go for university/ hospital recommended sites like MAYO CLINIC)
Even expectorant Cough syrup can help in cases of Pneumonia and the are things like Mucinex available. The injured often get secondary Pneumonia.
As for LIVE STRONG YES AND NO its a good baseline for average but they are Nearly totally food and holistic. Ayurvedic (HINDI Holistic). Though I do not shun these totally..tea tree oil is great for toe nail fungus for example and cheaper than an RX.

Learn the safe uses for OTC things like Iodine,Ipecac, even Gatorade/pedialyte in cases of dehydration.

Sanitation methods...the Black plague and rats...need I say more. Stop little thing before the become big things.

NO ONE is immortal ACCEPT IT, not even with the best medical care in the best Medical facility. Medicine is a balance, Home care and first aid..are preventative and keeping thing from getting worse. The rest fall under the meaning of life question. Best of luck!

hey something we agree upon well written altho I must say prevention is the #1 important thing but with regards to sutures one could argue against it just like anesthesia that it could complicate and exacerbate a injury by trapping infectious material in the wound
but then that would imply that i don't think that someone who has taken the time to learn sutures has not taken the time to learn about the possible side effects.

Originally Posted by ignis fatuus

It is spelled ,Gangrene. Damn the Discovery channel and Dual Survival (gun powder episode Argentina)! Both Characters did come out and say "we showed what was done historically , not what should be done now" (paraphrased) Profits and ratings. Please step away from the TV

typos happen now who's panties are in a twist.

and unfortunately for your argument I have no idea what you are referencing because I do not tend to frequent the Tv much other than for the weather in the morning for the 7 day forecast.


but for the sake of a good argument,

you and others say O no anesthesia is too dangerous.

I say if it is so dangerous that only "Our highly skilled modern professionals" have any idea what the hell they are doing and no one else on earth could do it. sounds like big pharma's reason for saying holistic medicine should be regulated doesn't it cant patent a plant (well not till monsanto)
then how has it been done since antiquity? while I do not tend to frequent the Tv as suggested often I do frequent my personal library for study on topics I find intriguing and happen to have a translated version of the "method of medicine" which goes into great detail on how to perform rather complex surgical procedures with many performed under "anesthesia" all written by those primitive Neanderthals waaaayy back in the day which is about a 1000 AD few hundred years before the first crusade

and in regards to ether its medical properties were known for several hundred years before it was used for surgeries

and things like trepanation we have evidence going back at successful operations all the way back to several thousand years BC

so unless your medical gods went back in time to tell some cave man that hey get hit with club get swelling of grey stuff between ears, die unless relieve pressure to funny grey stuff UGG UGG cut hole in head like so make better.

your way overplaying the potential negatives the truth is I would be far more worried about mitigating infection post op than I would getting to much go juice and crossing over to rest under the shade of the trees

but then again what do I know I am just a humble man with a simple mind who has no notion of fancy things and who has never ever done anything remotely medical in my life i just sit at home play wow/cod and hide in my parents basement like all the other good american lads getting fat and bitching about how things don't come to me on a silver platter.

[bojangles]

Some interesting points raised on both sides.

I would suggest that prior to removing any unwanted metal that is not superficial, google the triad of anaesthesia. A rather important point is muscle relaxation.

I'm not being arrogant, simply brutally realistic. Modern anaesthetic techniques have allowed surgery to develop to where it is today. Anaesthesia is an art as much as it a science.

If you look back at the Napoleonic wars, the first world war, the second world war and subsequent conflicts, you will see that survival rates have increased hugely.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by bojangles

Some interesting points raised on both sides.

I would suggest that prior to removing any unwanted metal that is not superficial, google the triad of anaesthesia. A rather important point is muscle relaxation.

I'm not being arrogant, simply brutally realistic. Modern anaesthetic techniques have allowed surgery to develop to where it is today. Anaesthesia is an art as much as it a science.

If you look back at the Napoleonic wars, the first world war, the second world war and subsequent conflicts, you will see that survival rates have increased hugely.

most definitely and deaths from anesthesia hs gone from 1 in a few thousand to 1 in 250k

but also the deaths from combat injuries now vs then also has a lot to do with 1 we have body armor which means more limb injuries and fewer deep abdominal/thoracic injuries. secondly we know alot more about infection and how to treat it anestesia not even factored in.
look at napoleonic times or even the civil war a bullet to a limb typically ment it had to be amputated because if not it would get gangrene

[Prudence]

Thanks, Ignis! You're not fatuus at all. That's the kind of thing I want to know: Not what can't I do, but what can I do? And thank you, too, FarmerJohn!

That said, I was thinking about this thread last night. [I had to come to grips with the fact that] post-SHTF we and our loved ones are very likely to suffer and die from diseases and injuries that are easily treatable now.

For example:

Puerperal fever: My cousin's wife got it after her first child was born. Antibiotics cleared it right up, but if there had been none, she might well have died. Wikipedia tells me that before antiseptics and antibiotics, puerperal fever was the #2 killer of women of childbearing age, after tuberculosis.

Strangulated hernia: A hernia operation is a piece of cake nowadays -- done laparoscopically, and you go home the same day. Do they even make hernia trusses anymore? [EDIT: Yes, they do -- but those won't help if the hernia isn't reducible.] A man can die, very painfully, from a strangulated inguinal hernia. And anyone, man or woman, can get hernias in other locations, with the same painful and fatal results.

Silent (i.e. painless) dental abscess: If it hadn't been for the Army dentist who found it during a routine exam, my dad might have died from blood poisoning, and then I would not be posting on this forum today. I think this was when sulfa drugs were state-of-the-art, but I don't know specifically how my dad's abscess was treated, and sadly, I can't ask him anymore.

[ignis fatuus]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

So is driving my car in fact im pretty sure I have a higher % chance of dying driving around town every day than I would under the knife of a primitive physician from 500 years ago performing anesthesia.

I love how you try to over play how dangerous it is yes the % of adverse reactions would be a lot higher lets say its as high as 1/1000 is fatal which is 250 times more fatal than the 1/250,000 today so yes it would be a whole lot more dangerous but not the death sentence you and a few others are making it out to be.

once again needing a whole field anesthesia unit to perform anesthesia is a fallacy it has been done successfully for centuries

and you are making the assumption that all shrapnel is little ity bits that can be left in the body I have personally seen someone with a roughly 4x2 inch chunk of metal in them your telling me your just going to let it be and the body will heal with that in it? who is the ignorant one now? yes at times shrapnel needs to be removed and depending on its location will determine the possibility of certain complications and no it is not all that rare to "dig" out shrapnel depending on how big the pieces are

who here ever said anything about ether from the automotive store? you can make reagent grade with a very basic set up and a little understanding of chemistry. that said for those who dont know there are many kinds of "ether" just because it says ether does not mean it is the right one and I would imagine that the "ether" used in the starting fluid at the auto shop also has a few other less than healthy additives

I would agree a tens unit is deffinetly not a AED or anywhere close


no I do not have either book



hey something we agree upon well written altho I must say prevention is the #1 important thing but with regards to sutures one could argue against it just like anesthesia that it could complicate and exacerbate a injury by trapping infectious material in the wound
but then that would imply that i don't think that someone who has taken the time to learn sutures has not taken the time to learn about the possible side effects.



typos happen now who's panties are in a twist.

and unfortunately for your argument I have no idea what you are referencing because I do not tend to frequent the Tv much other than for the weather in the morning for the 7 day forecast.


but for the sake of a good argument,

you and others say O no anesthesia is too dangerous.

I say if it is so dangerous that only "Our highly skilled modern professionals" have any idea what the hell they are doing and no one else on earth could do it. sounds like big pharma's reason for saying holistic medicine should be regulated doesn't it cant patent a plant (well not till monsanto)
then how has it been done since antiquity? while I do not tend to frequent the Tv as suggested often I do frequent my personal library for study on topics I find intriguing and happen to have a translated version of the "method of medicine" which goes into great detail on how to perform rather complex surgical procedures with many performed under "anesthesia" all written by those primitive Neanderthals waaaayy back in the day which is about a 1000 AD few hundred years before the first crusade

and in regards to ether its medical properties were known for several hundred years before it was used for surgeries

and things like trepanation we have evidence going back at successful operations all the way back to several thousand years BC

so unless your medical gods went back in time to tell some cave man that hey get hit with club get swelling of grey stuff between ears, die unless relieve pressure to funny grey stuff UGG UGG cut hole in head like so make better.

your way overplaying the potential negatives the truth is I would be far more worried about mitigating infection post op than I would getting to much go juice and crossing over to rest under the shade of the trees

but then again what do I know I am just a humble man with a simple mind who has no notion of fancy things and who has never ever done anything remotely medical in my life i just sit at home play wow/cod and hide in my parents basement like all the other good american lads getting fat and bitching about how things don't come to me on a silver platter.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by ignis fatuus

thats supposed to mean what exactly