Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > General Discussion Section > Religious Discussion
Articles Chat Room Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files



Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-15-2012, 11:34 AM
Caneman Caneman is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,100
Thanks: 464
Thanked 1,542 Times in 611 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinnesotaCuke View Post
Amen! And once we come to Christ, do we shoot the tutor in the head, or do we continue in what he taught us?
we continue to do what the law taught us but for a different reason, and by a different power...

we continue to pursue the righteousness of the law as an act of love to our Lord, Savior, and Master the Lord Jesus Christ, and the motive is no longer to earn our salvation through the law but to please Him...

however, we can only fulfill the law by abiding in Jesus Christ and having Him enable us to bear fruit... any acts of our own merit or righteousness count nothing before God, it all is by faith in Him walking and being led by the Holy Spirit...
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Caneman For This Useful Post:
Old 11-15-2012, 11:41 AM
MountainRecluse MountainRecluse is offline
I love this forum
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: 2 klicks north of nowhere
Posts: 9,366
Thanks: 8,977
Thanked 19,291 Times in 6,517 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemon_fresh View Post
Hold up . . .

Is there a difference in grafted on and grafted in?
Well the text says "grafted-in"...

I'm assuming he meant the same thing. But I'm never suprised anymore...haha.
Old 11-15-2012, 02:54 PM
pastornator pastornator is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,278
Thanks: 446
Thanked 3,089 Times in 1,318 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
ok..this is a real question...can you show me in the Hebrew scriptures where it says this?
(bolded)
"Eccl 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pastornator For This Useful Post:
Old 11-15-2012, 02:55 PM
pastornator pastornator is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,278
Thanks: 446
Thanked 3,089 Times in 1,318 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainRecluse View Post
Well the text says "grafted-in"...

I'm assuming he meant the same thing. But I'm never suprised anymore...haha.
Same thing... Semantics.

Take a twig, cut a slit in a tree branch or trunk, splice in the tree -- grafted on, or grafted in -- same deal.
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to pastornator For This Useful Post:
Old 11-15-2012, 03:07 PM
jazzyfizzle's Avatar
jazzyfizzle jazzyfizzle is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North of the Mohicans
Posts: 5,736
Thanks: 11,024
Thanked 7,434 Times in 3,892 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
"Eccl 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
..ok thank you. I'm not following you with how this verse means this-


On the Law... Still needs to be kept PERFECTLY for salvation



..yes I do understand it says there that our works will be judged, even our secret things..but don't see that it says where we have to keep the law perfectly. We do not understand it that way. This idea is a christian concept.
The Following User Says Thank You to jazzyfizzle For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2012, 08:27 AM
pastornator pastornator is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,278
Thanks: 446
Thanked 3,089 Times in 1,318 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
..ok thank you. I'm not following you with how this verse means this-


On the Law... Still needs to be kept PERFECTLY for salvation



..yes I do understand it says there that our works will be judged, even our secret things..but don't see that it says where we have to keep the law perfectly. We do not understand it that way. This idea is a christian concept.
Which part of breaking God's Law -- all of it -- is okay with God?

An breaking of God's Law is a sin of rebellion against God akin to that of Adam in Genesis. God said -- he didn't do or keep what God said -- mankind dies spiritually because of the curse of sin. Your insisting that one does not have to keep the Law perfectly is demonstration that you are part of that sin curse.

Did or did not Israel have a service of atonement every year BECAUSE they violated God's Law? Did or did not God PROMISE a new covenant where His Law would be written on every heart instead of obeyed by outward works?

Keep fishing, you will find the answers even in the OT, which WAS the Bible cited by the NT writers.
Old 11-16-2012, 08:43 AM
lemon_fresh lemon_fresh is offline
I love this forum
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,036
Thanks: 5,153
Thanked 7,203 Times in 2,680 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
Same thing... Semantics.

Take a twig, cut a slit in a tree branch or trunk, splice in the tree -- grafted on, or grafted in -- same deal.
Just making sure you were saying what I thought you were saying.

Thanks for the clarification!
Old 11-16-2012, 12:28 PM
jazzyfizzle's Avatar
jazzyfizzle jazzyfizzle is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North of the Mohicans
Posts: 5,736
Thanks: 11,024
Thanked 7,434 Times in 3,892 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
Which part of breaking God's Law -- all of it -- is okay with God?

An breaking of God's Law is a sin of rebellion against God akin to that of Adam in Genesis. God said -- he didn't do or keep what God said -- mankind dies spiritually because of the curse of sin. Your insisting that one does not have to keep the Law perfectly is demonstration that you are part of that sin curse.

Did or did not Israel have a service of atonement every year BECAUSE they violated God's Law? Did or did not God PROMISE a new covenant where His Law would be written on every heart instead of obeyed by outward works?

Keep fishing, you will find the answers even in the OT, which WAS the Bible cited by the NT writers.


this text does not say what you are stating. Yes there absolutely will be a new covenant, it is clear we are not in that, we will have no doubt as everyone will know and worship YHWH and study Torah.

I mean, this is a hinge doctrine of christianity, right? That no one can keep the law perfectly- that God says the law must be kept perfectly- since one cannot- they are in need of a 'savior' to save them from this situation, correct?

I think if this is such a key component of christianity-really THE key component, there should be verses stating this. I would like to see them.

This is very similar to the question of whether 'the messiah' as in the messiah coming to bring the new covenant, is supposed to be God Himself. This is another key component of christianity that there should be *Hebrew bible* scriptures to prove- since the Hebrew Bible is the text that foretells of that messiah and what he will do. I still am interesting in seeing these, which can never be produced.
Old 11-16-2012, 03:23 PM
pastornator pastornator is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,278
Thanks: 446
Thanked 3,089 Times in 1,318 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
this text does not say what you are stating. Yes there absolutely will be a new covenant, it is clear we are not in that, we will have no doubt as everyone will know and worship YHWH and study Torah.
You cite the failed interpreation of the Hebrew leaders in this circumstance. God, through Christ, further revealed a new truth at Pentecost after Jesus left this earth. For the record, ALL the earliest Christians were first Jews, so they understood this issue and they followed the teachings of Christ anyway. Yes, even priests, Pharisees, Sadduces, and other Jewish zealots.

Acts 4:1-2 (ESV) And as they [apostles of Christ] were speaking to the people, the [Jewish] priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 But many of those [Jews] who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand. 5 On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, "By what power or by what name did you do this?" 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." 13 Now when they [Jewish leaders] saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14 But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition. 15 But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another, 16 saying, "What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name." 18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
I mean, this is a hinge doctrine of christianity, right? That no one can keep the law perfectly- that God says the law must be kept perfectly- since one cannot- they are in need of a 'savior' to save them from this situation, correct?

I think if this is such a key component of christianity-really THE key component, there should be verses stating this. I would like to see them.
Indeed. That is precisely true. It is called "justification by grace through faith."

I highly suggest that you read the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to the Romans.

Romans 4:1 (ESV) What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:23 (ESV) But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 5:9 (ESV) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as one trespass [fn] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
This is very similar to the question of whether 'the messiah' as in the messiah coming to bring the new covenant, is supposed to be God Himself. This is another key component of christianity that there should be *Hebrew bible* scriptures to prove- since the Hebrew Bible is the text that foretells of that messiah and what he will do. I still am interesting in seeing these, which can never be produced.
It is in there... If you know the Hebrew Scriptures like you suggest, you would be well aware of the "suffering sevant" passages in Isaiah.

Isaiah 53:3 (ESV) He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Or this Psalm (selected verses for some brevity), the very words and actions of Christ on the cross:

Psa 22:1 ... My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? ... 6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads; 8 "He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!" 9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. 10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God. 11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help. 12 Many bulls encompass me; strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; 15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet-- 17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me; 18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.
Old 11-16-2012, 03:36 PM
jazzyfizzle's Avatar
jazzyfizzle jazzyfizzle is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North of the Mohicans
Posts: 5,736
Thanks: 11,024
Thanked 7,434 Times in 3,892 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
You cite the failed interpreation of the Hebrew leaders in this circumstance. God, through Christ, further revealed a new truth at Pentecost after Jesus left this earth. For the record, ALL the earliest Christians were first Jews, so they understood this issue and they followed the teachings of Christ anyway. Yes, even priests, Pharisees, Sadduces, and other Jewish zealots.
well I should be getting stuff finished around here lol, but this was interesting and wanted to respond..

Ok, sure, I'm always open to the fact that any interpretation can be flawed in some measure, whether by mistake or purpose. So it is surely possible.

Do you have documents you can use that are older than the ones I use at chabad, to show me where their interpretation is failed? I would definitely be interested in seeing it.


Yes I am aware all the first christians were Jews. Yes I am aware some of them were pharisees..ect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post

Acts 4:1-2 (ESV) And as they [apostles of Christ] were speaking to the people, the [Jewish] priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 But many of those [Jews] who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand. 5 On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, "By what power or by what name did you do this?" 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." 13 Now when they [Jewish leaders] saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14 But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition. 15 But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another, 16 saying, "What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name." 18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard." ]




Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
Indeed. That is precisely true. It is called "justification by grace through faith."

I highly suggest that you read the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to the Romans.

Romans 4:1 (ESV) What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:23 (ESV) But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 5:9 (ESV) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as one trespass [fn] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
]
yes I have read what Paul has to say. Do you have anything from the Hebrew scriptures? The Word of YHWH?



Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
It is in there... If you know the Hebrew Scriptures like you suggest, you would be well aware of the "suffering sevant" passages in Isaiah.

Isaiah 53:3 (ESV) He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Or this Psalm (selected verses for some brevity), the very words and actions of Christ on the cross:

Psa 22:1 ... My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? ... 6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads; 8 "He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!" 9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. 10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God. 11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help. 12 Many bulls encompass me; strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; 15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet-- 17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me; 18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.
I am just a learner, nothing more, following the course that YHWH has seen fit to set me on.

Yes I am very aware of Isaiah 53.

Can you show me in there where it says the messiah will be God, or divine in some way?


I can post the Hebrew that shows this translation of Psalms to be incorrect.

Thanks for talking.
Old 11-16-2012, 03:50 PM
jazzyfizzle's Avatar
jazzyfizzle jazzyfizzle is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North of the Mohicans
Posts: 5,736
Thanks: 11,024
Thanked 7,434 Times in 3,892 Posts
Default

..am I derailing..who started this one, MR, he will forgive me

course I'm not quite derailing, still pertains, right..



here we go







Tehillim- Psalms 53

1. For the conductor, on the ayeleth hashachar, a song of David.
א. לַמְנַצֵּחַ עַל אַיֶּלֶת הַשַּׁחַר מִזְמוֹר לְדָוִד:


2. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.
ב. אֵלִי אֵלִי לָמָה עֲזַבְתָּנִי רָחוֹק מִישׁוּעָתִי דִּבְרֵי שַׁאֲגָתִי:


3. My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent
ג. אֱלֹהַי אֶקְרָא יוֹמָם וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה וְלַיְלָה וְלֹא דוּמִיָּה לִי:


4. But You are holy; You await the praises of Israel.
ד. וְאַתָּה קָדוֹשׁ יוֹשֵׁב תְּהִלּוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל:


5. Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them.
ה. בְּךָ בָּטְחוּ אֲבֹתֵינוּ בָּטְחוּ וַתְּפַלְּטֵמוֹ:


6. They cried out to You and they escaped; they trusted in You and they were not shamed.
ו. אֵלֶיךָ זָעֲקוּ וְנִמְלָטוּ בְּךָ בָטְחוּ וְלֹא בוֹשׁוּ:


7. But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples.
ז. וְאָנֹכִי תוֹלַעַת וְלֹא אִישׁ חֶרְפַּת אָדָם וּבְזוּי עָם:


8. All who see me will mock me; they will open their lips, they will shake their head.
ח. כָּל רֹאַי יַלְעִגוּ לִי יַפְטִירוּ בְשָׂפָה יָנִיעוּ רֹאשׁ:


9. One should cast his trust upon the Lord, and He will rescue him; He will save him because He delights in him.
ט. גֹּל אֶל יְהֹוָה יְפַלְּטֵהוּ יַצִּילֵהוּ כִּי חָפֵץ בּוֹ:


10. For You drew me from the womb; You made me secure on my mother's breasts.
י. כִּי אַתָּה גֹחִי מִבָּטֶן מַבְטִיחִי עַל שְׁדֵי אִמִּי:


11. Upon You, I was cast from birth; from my mother's womb You are my God.
יא. עָלֶיךָ הָשְׁלַכְתִּי מֵרָחֶם מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי אֵלִי אָתָּה:


12. Do not distance Yourself from me, for distress is near; for there is none to help.
יב. אַל תִּרְחַק מִמֶּנִּי כִּי צָרָה קְרוֹבָה כִּי אֵין עוֹזֵר:


13. Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.
יג. סְבָבוּנִי פָּרִים רַבִּים אַבִּירֵי בָשָׁן כִּתְּרוּנִי:


14. They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion.
יד. פָּצוּ עָלַי פִּיהֶם אַרְיֵה טֹרֵף וְשֹׁאֵג:


15. I was spilled like water, and all my bones were separated; my heart was like wax, melting within my innards.
טו. כַּמַּיִם נִשְׁפַּכְתִּי וְהִתְפָּרְדוּ כָּל עַצְמוֹתָי הָיָה לִבִּי כַּדּוֹנָג נָמֵס בְּתוֹךְ מֵעָי:


16. My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.
טז. יָבֵשׁ כַּחֶרֶשׂ | כֹּחִי וּלְשׁוֹנִי מֻדְבָּק מַלְקוֹחָי וְלַעֲפַר מָוֶת תִּשְׁפְּתֵנִי:


17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.
יז. כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי:


18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me.
יח. אֲסַפֵּר כָּל עַצְמוֹתָי הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ יִרְאוּ בִי:


19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.
יט. יְחַלְּקוּ בְגָדַי לָהֶם וְעַל לְבוּשִׁי יַפִּילוּ גוֹרָל:


20. But You, O Lord, do not distance Yourself; my strength, hasten to my assistance.
כ. וְאַתָּה יְהֹוָה אַל תִּרְחָק אֱיָלוּתִי לְעֶזְרָתִי חוּשָׁה:


21. Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog
כא. הַצִּילָה מֵחֶרֶב נַפְשִׁי מִיַּד כֶּלֶב יְחִידָתִי:


22. Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.
כב. הוֹשִׁיעֵנִי מִפִּי אַרְיֵה וּמִקַּרְנֵי רֵמִים עֲנִיתָנִי:


23. I will tell Your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You.
כג. אֲסַפְּרָה שִׁמְךָ לְאֶחָי בְּתוֹךְ קָהָל אֲהַלְלֶךָּ:


24. You who fear the Lord, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, honor Him, and fear Him, all the seed of Israel.כד. יִרְאֵי יְהֹוָה | הַלְלוּהוּ כָּל זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב כַּבְּדוּהוּ וְגוּרוּ מִמֶּנוּ כָּל זֶרַע יִשְׂרָאֵל:


25. For He has neither despised nor abhorred the cry of the poor, neither has He hidden His countenance from him; and when he cried out to Him, He hearkened.
כה. כִּי לֹא בָזָה וְלֹא שִׁקַּץ עֱנוּת עָנִי וְלֹא הִסְתִּיר פָּנָיו מִמֶּנּוּ וּבְשַׁוְּעוֹ אֵלָיו שָׁמֵעַ:


26. Because of You is my praise in the great congregation; I pay my vows in the presence of those who fear Him.
כו. מֵאִתְּךָ תְהִלָּתִי בְּקָהָל רָב נְדָרַי אֲשַׁלֵּם נֶגֶד יְרֵאָיו:


27. The humble shall eat and be sated; they shall praise the Lord, those who seek him; your hearts shall live forever.
כז. יֹאכְלוּ עֲנָוִים | וְיִשְׂבָּעוּ יְהַלְלוּ יְהֹוָה דֹּרְשָׁיו יְחִי לְבַבְכֶם לָעַד:


28. All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You.
כח. יִזְכְּרוּ | וְיָשֻׁבוּ אֶל יְהֹוָה כָּל אַפְסֵי אָרֶץ וְיִשְׁתַּחֲווּ לְפָנֶיךָ כָּל מִשְׁפְּחוֹת גּוֹיִם:


29. For the kingship is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations.
כט. כִּי לַיהֹוָה הַמְּלוּכָה וּמוֹשֵׁל בַּגּוֹיִם:


30. They shall eat all the best of the earth and prostrate themselves; before Him shall all those who descend to the dust kneel, and He will not quicken his soul.ל. אָכְלוּ וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ | כָּל דִּשְׁנֵי אֶרֶץ לְפָנָיו יִכְרְעוּ כָּל יוֹרְדֵי עָפָר וְנַפְשׁוֹ לֹא חִיָּה:


31. The seed that worships Him; it shall be told to the generation concerning the Lord.
לא. זֶרַע יַעַבְדֶנּוּ יְסֻפַּר לַאדֹנָי לַדּוֹר:


32. They shall come and tell His righteousness to the newborn people, that which He has done.
לב. יָבֹאוּ וְיַגִּידוּ צִדְקָתוֹ לְעַם נוֹלָד כִּי עָשָׂה:
Old 11-17-2012, 04:25 AM
esheldon esheldon is offline
His Disciple
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: FL
Posts: 1,003
Thanks: 641
Thanked 1,430 Times in 656 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
Same thing... Semantics.

Take a twig, cut a slit in a tree branch or trunk, splice in the tree -- grafted on, or grafted in -- same deal.
I was just going to chalk it up to fat-fingering considering the I and O are right next to each other, but thank you for expounding
The Following User Says Thank You to esheldon For This Useful Post:
Old 11-17-2012, 05:10 AM
esheldon esheldon is offline
His Disciple
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: FL
Posts: 1,003
Thanks: 641
Thanked 1,430 Times in 656 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastornator View Post
Which part of breaking God's Law -- all of it -- is okay with God?

An breaking of God's Law is a sin of rebellion against God akin to that of Adam in Genesis. God said -- he didn't do or keep what God said -- mankind dies spiritually because of the curse of sin. Your insisting that one does not have to keep the Law perfectly is demonstration that you are part of that sin curse.

Did or did not Israel have a service of atonement every year BECAUSE they violated God's Law? Did or did not God PROMISE a new covenant where His Law would be written on every heart instead of obeyed by outward works?

Keep fishing, you will find the answers even in the OT, which WAS the Bible cited by the NT writers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
this text does not say what you are stating. Yes there absolutely will be a new covenant, it is clear we are not in that, we will have no doubt as everyone will know and worship YHWH and study Torah.

I mean, this is a hinge doctrine of christianity, right? That no one can keep the law perfectly- that God says the law must be kept perfectly- since one cannot- they are in need of a 'savior' to save them from this situation, correct?

I think if this is such a key component of christianity-really THE key component, there should be verses stating this. I would like to see them.

This is very similar to the question of whether 'the messiah' as in the messiah coming to bring the new covenant, is supposed to be God Himself. This is another key component of christianity that there should be *Hebrew bible* scriptures to prove- since the Hebrew Bible is the text that foretells of that messiah and what he will do. I still am interesting in seeing these, which can never be produced.
While I can say yes, I do not see where it says [specifically] to keep the law for salvation...I do see where it says to "be perfect." IMO it is "striving" to be perfect because we love Him and that means His laws too...to me, that is what brings us to salvation. Colossians speaks to this:

Colossians 3:12-17,
12 Therefore, as chosen ones of Elohim, set-apart and beloved, put on compassion, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, patience,

13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other if anyone has a complaint against another, indeed, as Messiah forgave you so also should you.

14 But above all these put on love, which is a bond of the perfection.

15 And let the peace of Elohim rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one Body, and be filled with thanks.

16 Let the Word of Messiah1 dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing with pleasure in your hearts to the Master in psalms and songs of praise and spiritual songs. Footnote: 1John 12:48, Dt. 18:19, Rev. 19:13.

17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the Name of the Master YAHshua, giving thanks to Elohim the Father through Him.

______________________

His Law is perfect:

Psalms 19:7,
The Torah of YHVH is perfect, bringing back the being; The witness of YHVH is trustworthy, making wise the simple;

James 1:21-25,
21 Therefore put away all filthiness and overflow of evil, and receive with meekness the implanted Word,1 which is able to save your lives. Footnote: 1See Mt. 13:4-23.

22 And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only,1 deceiving yourselves. Footnote: 1See Mt. 7:24-27, Lk. 6:46-49, Lk. 8:21, Rom. 2:13, Heb. 4:11, Rev. 22:14.

23 Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror,

24 for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like.

25 But he that looked into the perfect Torah, that of freedom,1 and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing of the Torah. Footnote: 1See 2:12.

_________________________________

We are told to be perfect, it starts in Genesis,

Gen 17:1…1 And it came to be when Aḇram was ninety-nine years old, that YHVH appeared to Aḇram and said to him, “I am Ěl Shaddai – walk before Me and be perfect1. Footnote: 1Messiah gives the same command in Mt. 5:48.

Matthew 5:48…48 “Therefore, be perfect,1 as your Father in the heavens is perfect. Footnote: 1Ps. 119:1, 1 John 2:5, Heb. 6:1.

Ps. 119:1…1 Blessed are the perfect in the way, Who walk in the Torah of YHVH!

1 John 2:5…5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected1 in him. By this we know that we are in Him.2 Footnotes: 1Gen. 17:1, Ps. 119:1, Mt. 5:48. 2See 3:24.

Heb 6:1…1 Therefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Messiah, let us go on to perfection,1 not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of belief toward Elohim, Footnote: 1Mt. 5:48.

1 John 3:24…24 And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.1 Footnote: 1John 14:23-24, Acts 5:32, Rom. 8:7-11, 1 John 2:5, 1 John 4:13.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to esheldon For This Useful Post:
Old 11-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Cachook's Avatar
Cachook Cachook is offline
I loved this form
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,282
Thanks: 2,186
Thanked 1,159 Times in 636 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=Caneman;4869899]we continue to do what the law taught us but for a different reason, and by a different power...

we continue to pursue the righteousness of the law as an act of love to our Lord, Savior, and Master the Lord Jesus Christ, and the motive is no longer to earn our salvation through the law but to please Him...

however, we can only fulfill the law by abiding in Jesus Christ and having Him enable us to bear fruit... any acts of our own merit or righteousness count nothing before God, it all is by faith in Him walking and being led by the Holy Spirit...[/QUOTE]

This is what the Message of the Cross is, and the product in keeping one's faith there is Romans 8:1-2 and Philippians 4:11-13.
The Following User Says Thank You to Cachook For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A note on Galatians 5:6 that I did a while ago- natty threads Religious Discussion 9 04-18-2012 09:16 PM
Comparing Romans 14 and the book of Galatians Obadiah Religious Discussion 3 11-14-2011 02:41 PM
The Covenants of God embrachu Religious Discussion 111 05-16-2011 05:03 PM
Galatians....(again).... MountainRecluse Religious Discussion 70 11-13-2010 12:11 PM
covenants and salvation questions? Standox Religious Discussion 13 08-02-2010 01:06 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Kevin Felts 2006 - 2012,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net


This site is Gunny Approved