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Old 11-14-2012, 03:18 PM
Tuirc Tuirc is offline
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Originally Posted by Theodsman View Post
I'm still waiting for where states are called nations and/or countries. Why are you avoiding this?

Yes, there are people who do not feel the need to follow a constitution when they disagree with it. I believe you just posted some rhetoric as to why you don't think the Texas Constitution should be followed. Ironic, I know, but still entertaining.
Theodsman - I'll point out, just as point of information and not having a dog in this particular fight (my opinion on this matter is back a page or two). Terms like "nation" and "country" have a particular meaning at this level of political science where we are discussing the very foundation of a polity. A "nation" is a homogenous group of people, think of the various Indian or Native American "nations." Since no state or before that, colony was ever a homogenous group of people, it's unlikely you will ever see them referred to that way.

A country refers to the land territory of a polity without particular regard to the people. So, that's not really what you want either. Nation-State is the term of art that you want for this discussion.

And, since this discussion will eventually get there anyway, I would suggest y'all take a look at White v. Texas, US sct. 1869. It might answer some questions for you.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:37 PM
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuirc View Post
Theodsman - I'll point out, just as point of information and not having a dog in this particular fight (my opinion on this matter is back a page or two). Terms like "nation" and "country" have a particular meaning at this level of political science where we are discussing the very foundation of a polity. A "nation" is a homogenous group of people, think of the various Indian or Native American "nations." Since no state or before that, colony was ever a homogenous group of people, it's unlikely you will ever see them referred to that way.

A country refers to the land territory of a polity without particular regard to the people. So, that's not really what you want either. Nation-State is the term of art that you want for this discussion.

And, since this discussion will eventually get there anyway, I would suggest y'all take a look at White v. Texas, US sct. 1869. It might answer some questions for you.
I believe we got there in this thread:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=267925
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Grass hopper View Post
Sounds good, I would rather Texas succes though, more electoral votes. Makes it easier for us democrats
You might get mighty cold though. Most nat gas and home heating oil in the northeast come from pipelines. From Texas.
And that is why it will never happen. But if it does we are sending the Bush family back to you.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by plankeye View Post
The feds will never let a state succeed, I fear all anyone is doing that signs this thing is, putting your name on Obombya's next "terrorist list" If your name is on one of those petitions don't be surprised if the IRS decides your next in line for a surprise audit
Freedom is not FREE. You have to participate. You have to take risks. You have to show up. You have to be counted.

My God! If nobody does anything we have lost everything and our kids and grandkids will never experience the things WE ALL took for granted lifelong simply because of greedy cowardice.

I say "Go ahead.. harass people and watch the anger go malignant and the wrath of the people be fertilized."

If we do nothing we deserve what ever the Feds dish out. I welcome any opportunity to shoot the Feds the Royal Bird. They deserve nothing more.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernSassy View Post
Do not put your name on one of these petitions. Who do you think the gobermint will come after first?

Stay gray.

I know, it's not fun. My new car doesn't have a single Confederate sticker on it and that really bugs me. But I figure I can do the cause more good by staying under the radar.
I hate repeating myself but ...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

You have chosen to be amongst those good men that do nothing.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety (Benjamin Franklin)

Stand up for the your rights or you deserve to lose them.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuirc View Post
Theodsman - I'll point out, just as point of information and not having a dog in this particular fight (my opinion on this matter is back a page or two). Terms like "nation" and "country" have a particular meaning at this level of political science where we are discussing the very foundation of a polity. A "nation" is a homogenous group of people, think of the various Indian or Native American "nations." Since no state or before that, colony was ever a homogenous group of people, it's unlikely you will ever see them referred to that way.

A country refers to the land territory of a polity without particular regard to the people. So, that's not really what you want either. Nation-State is the term of art that you want for this discussion.
I am fully aware of the differing usages for both "nation" and "country". My usage was in response to FarmerJohn's claims and therefore continued his usage. I'm of the opinion that it will not be found because it was not used. It was not used because it was not appropriate. You will find I mentioned nation-state though.

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...&postcount=621
Old 11-14-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Nutty Old Geezer View Post
You might get mighty cold though. Most nat gas and home heating oil in the northeast come from pipelines. From Texas.
And that is why it will never happen. But if it does we are sending the Bush family back to you.
Ohio, Pa, NY Fracking.. we have nat gas out the whazoo and are injecting oil wells. We have oil. On the lands adjacent to me and all over NE and SE Ohio in farm fields sit oil tanks.

Mich has pipelines from Canada carrying crude oil. Where did you ever get the idea that most oil and gas comes from Texas? Untrue.

We have the largest deposits of coal in the world in Pa, Oh, WV, IL and Kentucky. It is under everywhere and we here in Oh, Pa,NY, Michigan etc control the largest bodies if fresh water.. The Great Lakes-with transportation and very active farming and cattle supplies...turkeys, hogs, huge chicken farms. Add Rail Yards, Trucking Hubs.. We still manufacture things like Roller Bearings, Steel, Vehicles.. Construction Equipment etc,

I think if we broke up into say 4-5 Trade Zones in the US the Midwest could very well hold it's own.
Old 11-14-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Theodsman View Post
I am fully aware of the differing usages for both "nation" and "country". My usage was in response to FarmerJohn's claims and therefore continued his usage. I'm of the opinion that it will not be found because it was not used. It was not used because it was not appropriate. You will find I mentioned nation-state though.

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...&postcount=621
Grand. Continue on then, I'll butt out.
Old 11-14-2012, 04:20 PM
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We should probably merge these two threads.
Seems natural.


...only to have them secede later **BAZINGA**
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Theodsman View Post
It is your job to prove your claims. You made them. I will not do your work for you.

I have not said they were not independent. In fact, I have stated they were multiple times. But they are still states and not nations or countries as you claimed. You seem unable or unwilling to produce those quotes. Until you do I will consider this conversation terminated.
Ok,ok, you have asked this so many times you have proven yourself an idiot lacking in both education and vocabulary.

Source Bing Dictionary

Definition: state

NOUN
states plural


1.

mostly autonomous region of federal country: an area forming part of a federal country such as the United States or Australia with its own government and legislature and control over most of its own internal affairs


2.

country: a country or nation with its own sovereign independent government


3.

government: a country's government and those government-controlled institutions that are responsible for its internal administration and its relationships with other countries
"state-owned companies"
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:23 PM
Tuirc Tuirc is offline
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Originally Posted by 10 Bears View Post
Freedom is not FREE. You have to participate. You have to take risks. You have to show up. You have to be counted.

My God! If nobody does anything we have lost everything and our kids and grandkids will never experience the things WE ALL took for granted lifelong simply because of greedy cowardice.

I say "Go ahead.. harass people and watch the anger go malignant and the wrath of the people be fertilized."

If we do nothing we deserve what ever the Feds dish out. I welcome any opportunity to shoot the Feds the Royal Bird. They deserve nothing more.
I quite agree with the sentiment. However, these petitions that are being talked about are petitions to Obama. The best outcome of a successful petition is that he will assign a staff member to look into the issue. REALLY???

What a colossal waste of energy and resources! If you really want to secede, then get a convention together in your state, vote delegates for the convention and move the question....shall the state (or Commonwealth) of _______ secede from the United States of America. Then let the wrath of the people be fertilized. Don't waste time and effort playing tiddlie-winks with the president.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:26 PM
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How about states become Reservations.

Ohio-Non-aligned Reservation of a Free People.
The Buckeye Tribe. UGH...Me think that is good Kimosabe.
10 Bears, First Chief of The Buckeye Nation.

Me go take scalps now.
Old 11-14-2012, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by verge View Post
Ok,ok, you have asked this so many times you have proven yourself an idiot lacking in both education and vocabulary.

Source Bing Dictionary

Definition: state

NOUN
states plural


1.

mostly autonomous region of federal country: an area forming part of a federal country such as the United States or Australia with its own government and legislature and control over most of its own internal affairs


2.

country: a country or nation with its own sovereign independent government


3.

government: a country's government and those government-controlled institutions that are responsible for its internal administration and its relationships with other countries
"state-owned companies"
he won't understand it hell insist you provide other sources of a state also being a nation
Old 11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
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Succession is unconstitutional but it makes for a fun thread.
Old 11-14-2012, 04:30 PM
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All 50 states have a signed petition now.

Um...well, so much for United States.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuirc View Post
I quite agree with the sentiment. However, these petitions that are being talked about are petitions to Obama. The best outcome of a successful petition is that he will assign a staff member to look into the issue. REALLY???

What a colossal waste of energy and resources! If you really want to secede, then get a convention together in your state, vote delegates for the convention and move the question....shall the state (or Commonwealth) of _______ secede from the United States of America. Then let the wrath of the people be fertilized. Don't waste time and effort playing tiddlie-winks with the president.
It is making a statement. Everything starts somewhere. It is firing a shot over their lame heads that folks are angry..

Don't you dare criticize people that are doing something while you sit there doing nothing then acting superior about it all.

Your opinion is the opinion of a deadbeat or a nit-picker,, either way throwing tomatoes at folks who are at least being vocal about unhappiness beats what you do.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 10 Bears View Post
It is making a statement. Everything starts somewhere. It is firing a shot over their lame heads that folks are angry..

Don't you dare criticize people that are doing something while you sit there doing nothing then acting superior about it all.

Your opinion is the opinion of a deadbeat or a nit-picker,, either way throwing tomatoes at folks who are at least being vocal about unhappiness beats what you do.
from the time SC first threatened sucession to when they finally got fed up enough to do it was about 30-40 years they were ready to walk around the 1820s
Old 11-14-2012, 04:34 PM
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All 50 states have a signed petition now.

Um...well, so much for United States.
This is telling DC we think that what they do, what they care about, how they MIS-SPEND our money is 100% unacceptable. This isn't just about Obama.. Congress gets a Big Slice of this too!
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by verge View Post
Ok,ok, you have asked this so many times you have proven yourself an idiot lacking in both education and vocabulary.
Yes, lacking in both education and vocabulary. That's it.

Thanks for quoting a dictionary. But since you seem so well educated and have such a profound vocabulary I'm sure you are aware that a dictionary is not a primary source or even a valid tertiary source. And while a dictionary does cover multiple modern and/or historic usages (if it has a detailed etymological entry) it does not specify the usage of a particular text or group of texts. Which means, and I'm sure you are aware of this with your extensive education and titanic vocabulary, that without a critical study of the extant material (in this case the texts describing the states -- some of which were quoted without any mention of nation or country) you would have no way of knowing what is being referred to.

Of course, you being so thoroughly educated, and clearly at the finest establishments, and having such an erudite vocabulary are fully aware of all of these facts.
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