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Old 04-30-2012, 02:47 PM
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panoz77 panoz77 is offline
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I could find many cases of malfunctions with any brand you post, reloads or not but I'm not going to waste my time proving an obvious fact that all brands malfunction. I don't doubt that some individual guns can go thousands of rounds without a malfunction cheap ones included.
Old 04-30-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by panoz77 View Post
I could find many cases of malfunctions with any brand you post, reloads or not but I'm not going to waste my time proving an obvious fact that all brands malfunction. I don't doubt that some individual guns can go thousands of rounds without a malfunction cheap ones included.
The point is there are brands with which malfunctions are FAR more rare.

I'm not going to spend anymore time trying to convince you that there are differences in quality of different firearms.
Old 05-01-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by BurntEyes View Post
See, our definitions of reliable are very very different.

Reliable to me is a gun that can cycle 10K rounds without a single FTE, FTF, 10K rounds with ZERO, ZERO failures.
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Originally Posted by BurntEyes View Post
The point is there are brands with which malfunctions are FAR more rare.

That was not your definition of reliable. You said ZERO malfunctions not "rare" malfunctions, you definition of reality must also be different.

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Originally Posted by BurntEyes View Post
That failure represents potential death. If I am drawing a fire arm, the FTE, can get you killed.
You also probably know that ammo related issues causes far more malfunctions than the actual firearms, still means your dead if your ammo fails.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panoz77 View Post
That was not your definition of reliable. You said ZERO malfunctions not "rare" malfunctions, you definition of reality must also be different.


You also probably know that ammo related issues causes far more malfunctions than the actual firearms, still means your dead if your ammo fails.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....0.2l_TmQ5m0qM

this has turned into a complete thread jack...
Old 05-01-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurntEyes View Post
See, our definitions of reliable are very very different.

Reliable to me is a gun that can cycle 10K rounds without a single FTE, FTF, 10K rounds with ZERO, ZERO failures. That failure represents potential death. If I am drawing a fire arm, the FTE, can get you killed. If you honestly think the less expensive guns are no different, I am never going to convince you otherwise. It's your life, and the value you put into your equipment tends to be exactly proportional to what it's worth.

This thread wasn't "How many cheapo guns can I purchase", it was a guy asking about stainless pistols in the 1000-1500 range. Yet you come in here talking about POS guns.

I don't care what you purchase, carry, own, etc, but the simple fact that you have no concept, or understanding of the differences in various guns screams to me that you've never owned any top quality firearms. That's fine, but don't go around spouting of nonsense about how there is no difference. There is, it's measurable, and I'm not going to sit idly by and have someone say that there isn't to people that potentially don't know the difference.

I've owned cheap firearms, still own a few, in specific use they are fine, but if you don't know the difference, which it's clear that you don't, keep it to yourself. Opinions are NOT fact, contrary to what you believe.

You are right I have never owned what would be considered a top quality fire arm , and to be perfectly honest , I have never had the need to own a pistol at all .
I was not suggesting to symply own a cheap ass pistol , there are several that I would not own based on the reputations I have heard about them .
I did specifically suggest a tokarev because from every review I have heard or read , they have a reputation to be very durable , simple and fairly accurate , qualities that I apreciate along with it being attainable enough for me to afford a backup .
I do understant that the poster is looking to buy something more mainstream , and the more power to him .
I personally have a soft spot for ww2 era weapons , and like the slim profile of the tok .
If I could buy any pistol it would be a browning high power or cz 75 , but thats really just because I like the look of them .
In reality if I were to buy a pistol tomorrow it would be a tok with a ton of ammo , but that would be after tripple checking with those in the know .
I would never suggest depending on a pistol with a reputaion for jamming in any way , but as I said everything I've read about the tok suggest that they are very reliable , but perhaps not very refined .
I have heard that they arte the AK of the pistol world .
That said , if it is a direct comparison , AKs are pretty cheap , but I don't hear many people bashing them for being unsuitable for combat . They aren't suitable for targets past 300yrds (neithers my sks ) , but in the right application they can be quite useful .
That was my understanding of the tok .
I do not suggest just buying a sat night special cause its cheap , I had heard that a tok was worth consideration , even with its limited mag capacity .
As I said before if you have any actuall experience with this particular gun , please share .
I am not asking if it had a competition like trigger or if its safety was super easy to operate , because I`have heard they are not , but I would kike to hear if you shot one that jammed alot .
Features of the tok that sold me are the mag lips machined into the reciever to help with damaged mags , and the removable trigger group for ease of cleaning and replacement , the slim profile for ease of concealement , and the 7.62x25 rd that has a reputation for going through plate ( I know were talking 9mm ).
Fit and finish were not on that list .
On a personal level , I realise I was kind of a **** in my last post , and I apologise for that , this was a civil discussion and theyre was no need for me to get my back up . I look forward to your response .
Old 05-01-2012, 04:52 PM
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My handgun of choice is the CZ P01 (called CZ 75D Compact in Europe).
Old 05-02-2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panoz77 View Post
That was not your definition of reliable. You said ZERO malfunctions not "rare" malfunctions, you definition of reality must also be different.


You also probably know that ammo related issues causes far more malfunctions than the actual firearms, still means your dead if your ammo fails.
If you are going to quote me, QUOTE ME.

I said, 10K fired with ZERO malfunctions. I've done that in the three guns I mentioned. I provided examples that I personally have used. You then started posting about crappy reloads. If I am going to have to denote not to do idiotic stuff like run over powered loads, well, then my point is lost.

I've done that with the three I listed, and I run top shelf SD ammunition. That said, even in practice with less than top quality loads, my guns STILL never malfunctioned. It isn't crappy ammo, but its WWB, and AMerican Eagle.

I'm not sure that I agree that ammo is a greater cause of pistol malfunctions, if they are mainstream manufactures standard loads, I get a very minute amount of failures in center-fire cartridges. I've got zero with top quality SD ammo, other than some FTfeed with hollow point in some automatics, which was the guns issue. In fact, I would say the majority of failures, outside of idiotic over pressured hand loads are, Shooter, Gun, then Ammo. At least, that has been my experience.

Not sure what you are trying to argue at this point.
Old 05-02-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sortofready View Post
I have never had the need to own a pistol at all .
I was not suggesting to symply own a cheap ass pistol , there are several that I would not own based on the reputations I have heard about them .
I did specifically suggest a tokarev because from every review I have heard or read , they have a reputation to be very durable , simple and fairly accurate , qualities that I apreciate along with it being attainable enough for me to afford a backup .
I do understant that the poster is looking to buy something more mainstream , and the more power to him .
I personally have a soft spot for ww2 era weapons , and like the slim profile of the tok .
If I could buy any pistol it would be a browning high power or cz 75 , but thats really just because I like the look of them .
In reality if I were to buy a pistol tomorrow it would be a tok with a ton of ammo , but that would be after tripple checking with those in the know .
I said everything I've read about the tok suggest that they are very reliable , but perhaps not very refined .

That was my understanding of the tok .
I do not suggest just buying a sat night special cause its cheap , I had heard that a tok was worth consideration , even with its limited mag capacity .
As I said before if you have any actuall experience with this particular gun , please share .
I am not asking if it had a competition like trigger or if its safety was super easy to operate , because I`have heard they are not , but I would kike to hear if you shot one that jammed alot .
Features of the tok that sold me are the mag lips machined into the reciever to help with damaged mags , and the removable trigger group for ease of cleaning and replacement , the slim profile for ease of concealement , and the 7.62x25 rd that has a reputation for going through plate ( I know were talking 9mm ).
Fit and finish were not on that list .
On a personal level , I realise I was kind of a **** in my last post , and I apologise for that , this was a civil discussion and theyre was no need for me to get my back up . I look forward to your response .
It's the internet, I don't get my feelings hurt.

Here's my point, you've never even owned a pistol, whereas I've been shooting pistols for 30+ years. Even with that, I don't claim to be an expert (I'm not, and not even close), I will however, say that I am experienced. I've shot a LOT of different pistols over the years. I've carried guns for a long time.

The truth is, I have handled a Tok, wouldn't ever purchase one as the triggers on the ones I've looked at are absolute crap. However, you've clearly never shot one either, and judging by your comments, never even held one. Yet you come into a discussion and start making suggestions that aren't even related to the question the OP posted. So you are making a suggestion, to the OP, that isn't related to the thread, on a gun you've never owned nor shot, as a superior alternative (FOR YOU) to the very specific guns he mentioned. You came to that conclusion not based on fact or personal experience but rather stuff you READ, I assume on the internet.

Again, I've no issue with whatever one chooses to own or carry, I just get annoyed when a very specific thread is derailed by discussions not pertinent to the OPs point. I will admit my hypocrisy here and admit that I've done it too, but try really hard not to.

I have zero issues with Tok, or HI-Point or any other less expensive gun that someone chooses to operate. My point is, and remains, that there is a difference in the quality of guns, specifically hand guns. If someone doesn't understand those, that is fine, but to express opinion based on what one read on the internet, is well, fruitless, imo.

I really do try to be civil and provide as much info as I can. I post more in the pistol section than in most, as I have FAR more experience in that area than in any other (save backpacking) on this entire site.

I provide my opinion based on personal experience, and never on what I have read.
Old 05-02-2012, 10:45 PM
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actually , the stuff I had heard was mostly through reputable publications like guns and ammo and shooters bible , although to be truthfull , the comparrisons are usually against other milsurp weapons of the same era .
As for my suggestion being superior to the other suggestions , that wasn't really my intent and I hope it didn't come off that way .
I simply thought that perhaps that semi would be worth consideration .
I have a few friends that shoot pistols , and as I have recently got my own pistol licence I keep my ears open as to what is and isn't a good buy .
Up here we don't have a ban on chinese import pistols , and quite a few shooters as well as gun store owners swear by norinco clones , although they do carry a lower price tag .
You see norinco still uses manufacturing techniques like hammer forged frames and barrels , and from my personal experience with norcs the action and trigger is often quite smooth in comparison to some of the models they have copied (often after some miner adjusting ).
From what I had heard from the few people I've known to shoot toks , they were said to be of good value and reliable action , and pack quite apunch in theyre original chamber .
Since last posting on this thread I did have the oppurtunity to handle but not shoot a 1948 russian , and thought the mechanics felt fairly nice , to the point I want to finish my papers and buy it for my bob .
But you say you,ve fired them and found them to be inferior , I appreciate that your opinion is based on experience and may rethink my purchase ( I'm also in the market for a bet your life onit pistol ).
I will be honest , from the way you blasted my opinion without sustantiating I assumed you were simply bashing commie surplus , or put offf by the Idea that ecenomical equipment could compete with your high end gear ( some people do think like that ) , but since you say that youre an avid pistol shooter , then I respect and apreciate your opinion based on experience .
I would not intentionally give advice that could cost someone in a firefight , and although my opinion was based on hearsay , my understanding of remington ,savage , mossberg and sks were as well .
I backed those rumers up with cash and can say from experience that I would relly on any of those weapons in battle particularily my sks .
And if I would relly on my sks , why would I not relly on a tok wich has a similar reputation ?
Anyhow thanx for sharing your experience , I did not intend any harm but only to share what I thought might be an alternative worth considering .
Old 05-04-2012, 09:09 PM
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CZ-75B Stainless or one of its variants.
Old 05-04-2012, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grevlin View Post
^--- There you go

Glock 19 - the best 9mm ever made

For:

Reliability
Size/Weight (just right for multiple roles)
Capacity
Ergonomics
Part change out
Ease of break down

In my opinion
But, the G19 doesn't fit my hands..Whatever shall I do...

I think this argument is pretty simple. If you don't mind the weight get a CZ from the Ghost Products custom shop. Angus will set you up right. Someone else commented on the lack of usable serrations on the slide. Don't worry about it. Get a pistol with a reduced power mainspring and a reduced power recoil spring and you won't hardly even notice. The CZ-75 is the only gun I ever regret retting rid of. I've owned and sold an AK, a Tokarev (well, Norc 213), a Sun Devil AR, numerous .22lr's, XD's, M&P's, Rugers of various calibers and models, and a number of Brownings. The Brown was a fine pistol, but the SA-only wasn't something I cared much for. The CZ, I feel, is merely an improvement upon Mr. Browning's design with the inclusion of DA function.

As well, look at one of the higher-end Tanfoglio Witness pistols. The Witness Stock II is one pistol from them I would get and happily put up with EAA's customer service if I ever needed it.

If you're looking for a steel-framed pistol, I think that CZ might be the best bet for the money you're looking to spend. Although I've never owned a Beretta, I've shot them plenty. They're not bad pistols, they're just horribly uncomfortable in my hand compared to the CZ. I never felt like I could get a good enough grip on one even though I was fairly accurate when shooting them. However, at the same distances I could chew X-rings and 10-rings out with the CZ vs perforating everything inside the 5-ring with the Beretta 92.
Old 05-04-2012, 09:44 PM
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Love the Beretta...totally reliable ....check out the Browning HP all steel and very ergonomic.
Old 05-04-2012, 10:14 PM
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I have a Gen 4 Glock 19 and it has been nothing but a great weapon. It is quite possibley one of the best all around 9mm's made
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