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Old 04-29-2012, 10:03 AM
Adapter Adapter is offline
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I have to add that IMHO you are offering to hire someone in consideration for value. I think you will be liable for any injuries.
Old 04-29-2012, 08:49 PM
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Its a shame that im soo far away and still in high school. Otherwise i would love to help, just give me a bed and food and you got labor! haha
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:58 AM
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I like the idea and if I could move all my chickens, ducks, rabbits, sheep, goats, guns, and food storage I would take you up on that!
Old 05-04-2012, 01:54 AM
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Funny part is I am fully intending to own some land west of Flagstaff myself... Arizona is slowly shaping up bit by bit! ...Cant deny curiosity, but being clear across the USA at the moment? Gyah! Lost possible opportunity!
Old 02-18-2013, 01:33 AM
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Hey folks, I have been unable to post for quite a while for several reasons, but I am back for a bit. We are about to move to our BOL and have changed directions in the type of structure we are building. We are no longer in need of apprentices BUT we are still very interested in having neighbors who want to live full or part time on our land. Even if you just want a BOL that is open to you when you need it for about the price of a storage unit.

We do really need a few families or individuals who want to LIVE out there. We need a group of back-watchers. We have learned the importance of having enough people so there is always someone on the property when others need to go to town.

Get to know me, read some of my posts. I am not holding back anything. My husband and I are pretty normal, laid back. This is NOT a welfare opportunity. We are not emotionally needy and don't want folks out there who feel like they need to come and sit On our couch every day and visit from morning til night. Socialization is fine but we want to maintain our privacy with the added security of a small group of people who want the same thing.

The land is primitive. We will be hauling water until we get our well in. Power is solar or wind. Heat is probably best with wood. Plumbing....we can discuss a few affordable options. 10 miles from pavement. Occasionally the weather will have you trapped out there for 2-3 weeks at a time. Not a single light can be seen at night except for the billions of stars and the moon. For every drawback there is many more positive attributes, but it is still off grid living. You definitely have to learn to live with the elements.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:51 AM
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Sounds more like "Wanted-Slave"
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:53 AM
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Sounds tempting. Problem is:

I'm not good at taking "orders" if it involves something that goes against my intuition, could possibly put my family in danger, or goes against any tactical training I have.

Where I am currently, everyone in my "hood" knows me well enough that I don't screw around, am generally far better trained than they are and would acquiesce to any orders I may offer up. Basically, I'm in charge. Even the cops in my neighborhood feel that way. I am a VERY powerful personality, but I'm fair, and kind for the most part.

My fear is human nature. What happens first time we have a disagreement? perhaps even a major one? Must I leave? Not likely! Would I still protect you? Of course I would, as long as you weren't a nutbar and still had something else besides your land to contribute.

Could be an ugly experience. Not saying it WOULD be, but I don't trust human nature. I'm not into "communes".
Old 02-18-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragunov View Post
Sounds tempting. Problem is:

My fear is human nature. What happens first time we have a disagreement? perhaps even a major one? Must I leave? Not likely! Would I still protect you? Of course I would, as long as you weren't a nutbar and still had something else besides your land to contribute.

Could be an ugly experience. Not saying it WOULD be, but I don't trust human nature. I'm not into "communes".
This is why there would be a lease. We would offer very long term leases. This is definitely not for everyone and disagreements with us are nothing more than an opportunity to figure ways to make things better. We are not challenged or offended by them. We know the difference between preferences and principles. Everyone may have different preferences. If we all agree on principles, for the most part, the rest is simple. People that come to our place will be the type that are more seen but not heard. And honestly, there are places on our land where 10 homes could be that no one would even have to SEE each other. No one will be in each others business except as watchmen for your neighbors. ALL OTHER INTERACTION WOULD BE VOLUNTARY. Thanks for your input!

Last edited by Ellen; 02-18-2013 at 10:15 AM..
Old 02-18-2013, 09:45 AM
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Sounds more like "Wanted-Slave"
You obviously missed something or I didn't make something very clear. From all of the PMs I have received I am quite sure most people have understood me. Thanks!
Old 02-18-2013, 09:47 AM
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apĚprenĚtice
/əˈprentis/
Noun
A person who is learning a trade from a skilled employer, having agreed to work for a fixed period at low wages or in trade for learning a skill.
Verb
Employ (someone) as an apprentice.
Synonyms
noun. learner - novice - prentice - disciple - pupil - tiro
verb.



slave
/slāv/
Noun
A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
Verb
Work excessively hard: "slaving away for all those years".
Synonyms
noun. thrall - helot - bondslave - serf - bondservant - bondman
Old 02-18-2013, 10:56 AM
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I have lived in communes (christian ) and given the strict manor in which they were run I'd say they did very well.
Taking on kids off the street and teaching them values and brightened their future ,many moved on to become respnsible citizens .
The danger of communes that have no moral values, nor dicipline, is the dammaging effect of abuse and drugs .
I believe you are going to find more of a bond of friendship in those that believe as you do , and a solid basis of agreement both must adhear to .
I do not think there needs to be an equality, certianly the land owner should have more right to say what others are allowed to do on their property ,seeing that, at least here , if drugs are found in a house,and it is a known portal, the state takes the house no matter who owns it.

It would be prudent to have insurance to cover some one working for you, though the person them selves may not take action on an event, their family might .
I might recomend a trial period ,if it is possable ,so that you can decide if you are willing to put up with their baggage and or they are compatable wiith your life style .
Like getting a job this is a romance relationship because their behavior is a reflection on your approval of them to the community.
An you may as well learn, that small towns are tight for a reason.
And bad news travels fast.
I wish you all the luck .
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
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I have lived in communes (christian ) and given the strict manor in which they were run I'd say they did very well.
Taking on kids off the street and teaching them values and brightened their future ,many moved on to become respnsible citizens .
The danger of communes that have no moral values, nor dicipline, is the dammaging effect of abuse and drugs .
I believe you are going to find more of a bond of friendship in those that believe as you do , and a solid basis of agreement both must adhear to .
I do not think there needs to be an equality, certianly the land owner should have more right to say what others are allowed to do on their property ,seeing that, at least here , if drugs are found in a house,and it is a known portal, the state takes the house no matter who owns it.

It would be prudent to have insurance to cover some one working for you, though the person them selves may not take action on an event, their family might .
I might recomend a trial period ,if it is possable ,so that you can decide if you are willing to put up with their baggage and or they are compatable wiith your life style .
Like getting a job this is a romance relationship because their behavior is a reflection on your approval of them to the community.
An you may as well learn, that small towns are tight for a reason.
And bad news travels fast.
I wish you all the luck .

Thank you. I appreciate your views. Trial periods are fine with me. No one should be locked in to a lease if they hate it there. But if someone wants to be there a long term lease can be provided for them so they can rest assured they can stay as long as they like.
Old 02-18-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by hunterwolf View Post
I like the idea and if I could move all my chickens, ducks, rabbits, sheep, goats, guns, and food storage I would take you up on that!
We are ready for you in the coming months. Actually, right now would be great!!
Old 02-18-2013, 03:10 PM
arleigh arleigh is offline
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How is the wind ?
and sun ?
Any hills mountains ,trees ect .
I'm no solar guru, but I love to expiriment and see what others have taken advantage of in their given situation.
You might also look into perma culture , they have some great innovations as well.
My current project is building an aquaponic green house implimenting chicken and fish manure in the garden water using raised beds .
Using a green house and keeping the water out of the wind and heat, keeps more of it, thus taking less to maintain the system.
I don't have a well here either ,still dependent on city water and rain.
You also migh strongly considder a tractor probibly a front loader and back howe.
Most are diesel and many are 4 wheel drive . Would be a real asset in all your endevours .
If the land is workable the tractor would come in handy there as well.
That is of course if you have a well.
If the land is flat a Kabota works just fine but if the land is very diversified then a ford might be the better choice having a wider stance .
Most heavy equipment is not hard to learn but the important thing is not getting in a hurry with it , That never pays off.
I would recomend that you might chose a dealer as close to your location as possable that has parts, and can make hoses on demand.
I've worked on snow cats D6-D8- wheel loaders Bob cats ,and many of their causins.
A track machine is supirrior however ,they are pricy to operate and maintain as well as absolutely requiring a trailer to move on the highway.
Bob Cats or their causins are very simple to operate and have most of the really important tools that work with them, you can learn them in an hour ,but , not an all turain vehicle . Not something you normally plough dirt with for farming, but they do use them for digging swimming pools and other excavation operations .
The Ford tractor and those like them can assist on all the digging rrequirements and back howe needs as well as helping lift trusses and beams and a lot of things ne should not lift by hand . call me lazy.




..
Old 02-18-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
How is the wind ?
and sun ?
Any hills mountains ,trees ect .
I'm no solar guru, but I love to expiriment and see what others have taken advantage of in their given situation.
You might also look into perma culture , they have some great innovations as well.
My current project is building an aquaponic green house implimenting chicken and fish manure in the garden water using raised beds .
Using a green house and keeping the water out of the wind and heat, keeps more of it, thus taking less to maintain the system.
I don't have a well here either ,still dependent on city water and rain.
You also migh strongly considder a tractor probibly a front loader and back howe.
Most are diesel and many are 4 wheel drive . Would be a real asset in all your endevours .
If the land is workable the tractor would come in handy there as well.
That is of course if you have a well.
If the land is flat a Kabota works just fine but if the land is very diversified then a ford might be the better choice having a wider stance .
Most heavy equipment is not hard to learn but the important thing is not getting in a hurry with it , That never pays off.
I would recomend that you might chose a dealer as close to your location as possable that has parts, and can make hoses on demand.
I've worked on snow cats D6-D8- wheel loaders Bob cats ,and many of their causins.
A track machine is supirrior however ,they are pricy to operate and maintain as well as absolutely requiring a trailer to move on the highway.
Bob Cats or their causins are very simple to operate and have most of the really important tools that work with them, you can learn them in an hour ,but , not an all turain vehicle . Not something you normally plough dirt with for farming, but they do use them for digging swimming pools and other excavation operations .
The Ford tractor and those like them can assist on all the digging rrequirements and back howe needs as well as helping lift trusses and beams and a lot of things ne should not lift by hand . call me lazy.




..
Our property is awesome as far as terrain. Most parcels in the vicinity are flat flat. Ours, for one, is larger than the other parcels of 40 acres and it has a hill situated closer to the northern border. The west side, across the way, has a mountain.

Wind is bad on the on the south side. We are building on the north as our structure and heating our home is not going to too much of an issue. So, we are building on the cold and less windy side.

We currently have and have access to a backhoe. I have run them since i was 14. We are loggers/carpenters. Without a well farming will be an issue. We will use our gray water for trees, etc. Black water will go into a septic. We considered other poop alternatives, the homemade 5-gallon bucket composting toilet, for one. We will have this for a backup anyways. Each person will need either a Watson wick system, composting toilet and accompanying disposal site (simple to do), or a mini septic system.

Why don't you just come out here and live? I honestly anticipate LOVING it, but I know many would find it the most undesirable way of life. I'd rather be out there without amenities than in town when everything goes to pot. Our comfort level will be much greater than those who are on the grid when it goes down.

There is a well exactly one mile away that we have rights to. There are also water tanks for cattle all around. It will take some ingenuity but we are up for the challenge.

Thanks for your advice!
Old 02-18-2013, 05:23 PM
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Default If you want to come and be productive but can't afford it

Don't dispair. If you can take care of your food needs without us helping you we would be more than happy to help you build a structure. Including footing some of the cost. If/when you leave/move it stays behind for the next person.

These structures are cheap to build and are energy efficient.

http://inspirationgreen.com/cordwood-construction.html

It takes firewood and mortar for the walls. Th floor and ceiling cost a bit but it doesn't have to be expensive. If you can't afford the monthly rent there is always work to do. As far as getting paid, don't count on that. You will need to provide for yourself. If you're not self sufficient this place is not for you. We are not charging rent to get rich. It puts both parties under the contract of a lease giving both parties rights.

This county allows 200sf with a 30' roof without a permit. We can build these small structures with another 200sf for kitchens, bath, living room, etc.

There is some negativity on this post. We are not negative people. We want this to be an option for people who need an alternative or want a BOL without paying for a BOL.

Keep the questions coming. I am learning a lot! Thanks.
Old 02-19-2013, 01:22 AM
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How are you handling sewage and sanitation? If you are bringing in water is there enough for bathing and laundry? How deep do you think the well needs to go? What is the cost per foot for well drilling in your area? Do you have any electricity to run a well pump, refrigerator or freezer? Is there any phone service or a reliable way of calling for help in an emergency? Where do newcomers live before they get a house built? Are you planning on growing your own food? If you are building cordwood buildings, where is the cordwood coming from? Do you own the land completely or is there a mortgage? What are the property taxes and how do get the money to pay them?

I am interested in what you are considering which is why I am asking so many questions. I have a military pension so I have enough cash for my basic needs. I have set myself up to be self-sufficient with water being my only limiting factor. Even then, I am very conservative with my water usage. I lived in Tucson for 4 years so I know about gardening and raising livestock in arid regions. I also spent a summer living in a tent in the desert in Egypt. I also know that NE AZ gets snow and cold weather in the winter. My propane heat setup would easily get me through a winter in your area. Even in CT I get more than a month with 5- 20# and 2- 40# tanks and I can take them to wherever I need to get them filled. My last tank fill was Jan 29 and I still have a full 20# and both 40# tanks are full.

I have enough portable solar panels and marine batteries for my needs with a bit of a surplus. I also have a motor for a wind generator and I know how make more wind generators. I have also looked into broadband internet for remote areas.

My biggest concern is how you and the others would be able handle living out there full time. I do like to get out and get my hands dirty and sweaty but I'm in my 50's so I can't push wheelbarrows all day like I did when I was younger. But I do have more than enough skills make up for that if you're interested.
Old 02-19-2013, 07:43 AM
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Interesting offer, I hope the right person come along to fill your needs.

You might consider writing into the terms a sort of trial period before the full lease is signed.
Old 02-19-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
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How are you handling sewage and sanitation? If you are bringing in water is there enough for bathing and laundry? How deep do you think the well needs to go? What is the cost per foot for well drilling in your area? Do you have any electricity to run a well pump, refrigerator or freezer? Is there any phone service or a reliable way of calling for help in an emergency? Where do newcomers live before they get a house built? Are you planning on growing your own food? If you are building cordwood buildings, where is the cordwood coming from? Do you own the land completely or is there a mortgage? What are the property taxes and how do get the money to pay them?

I am interested in what you are considering which is why I am asking so many questions. I have a military pension so I have enough cash for my basic needs. I have set myself up to be self-sufficient with water being my only limiting factor. Even then, I am very conservative with my water usage. I lived in Tucson for 4 years so I know about gardening and raising livestock in arid regions. I also spent a summer living in a tent in the desert in Egypt. I also know that NE AZ gets snow and cold weather in the winter. My propane heat setup would easily get me through a winter in your area. Even in CT I get more than a month with 5- 20# and 2- 40# tanks and I can take them to wherever I need to get them filled. My last tank fill was Jan 29 and I still have a full 20# and both 40# tanks are full.

I have enough portable solar panels and marine batteries for my needs with a bit of a surplus. I also have a motor for a wind generator and I know how make more wind generators. I have also looked into broadband internet for remote areas.

My biggest concern is how you and the others would be able handle living out there full time. I do like to get out and get my hands dirty and sweaty but I'm in my 50's so I can't push wheelbarrows all day like I did when I was younger. But I do have more than enough skills make up for that if you're interested.
For our home we are putting in a small septic system. Sanitation is extremely important. Gray water will water trees or other vegetation. Everyone in the area has the same water concerns. There are companies that will bring you water anywhere for $.03 per gallon. Not ideal but it works. There is a well one mile away as well. We will have a water hauling truck for our use as well.

We have a rig to drill the well. We are lacking an operator for the rig. The first water table is 40-60 feet. The major water table, the Coconino aquifer is about 360 feet. Our only cost will be fuel and water for the rig, pipe and casing, and the pump. We get all those things at wholesale. We figured about $6k with cost added in for unforeseen expense. Plus a water storage tank. Right now we plan on hauling water. There is no promise of a well. It is our priority at the moment.

There is Internet capabilites out there in some locations. Walking around with my ipad there were places that would drop my service. I was using Verizon. I plan on building a little place where the best signal is so I can have a place to sit and keep out of the weather. If people wanted to pitch in for satellite or something else we could definitely do that. I like my Internet.

Power for the pump will be solar, hence the importance of a storage tank that is filled while the sun shines. The solar set up we have now, and our battery bank, will run our house. Like any home, no matter where you live, people will need to provide for the cost of their own power. Our system, which, during the day will power consecutively a fridge, washer, propane dryer, vacuum, tv, and computer cost us $3500 used. Quite a bit but there is no monthly bill. Granted, in town, our monthly electric bill is always under $100, it would take 35+ months to pay for itself. That's part of living off grid. Wind is a fairly stable option there as well on the south side of our hill.

As mentioned earlier, in an emergency, help coming in is probably an hour away. There is cell service most places on the property through Verizon. There is a land line option one mile away which I think we will pay for that service. That is on my list to inquire about this week. Just a note on emergency services, everyone who lives off grid all says the same things: make sure you can fight a fire on your own, have sufficient fire extinguishers as the fire department won't even be able to find you. This is part of the reason for living out there. It's important to take extra care of personal safety. We are self reliant; not just cheap words when you're living off grid. I have a pacemaker. I'm otherwise generally very healthy. When it's my time to go, it's my time to go. An EMP will be the immediate end of my pacer, then I'm on my own. I am 100% fine with that. You can't hold onto mortality for forever.

We are taking a travel trailer out that we will put an addition or cover over to make it look to like a little houe. It will be available for people to stay in temporarily. We got it for free, so it's not the ritz but it's not a wretched dump either. It has one bedroom and a tip out in the living room and a full kitchen. Technically, with propane and a wood stove, it would not be uncomfortable living out there with a little light in the evening. At night it's dark. With no moon it is pitch black. You have to be able to enjoy that. Our house will have LED lighting but otherwise it's dark outside.

We are planning on growing our own food. We always have grown some of our food. We have goats, chickens, and rabbits. We will make raised beds that use less water for gardening. They will likely be constructed out of the local malapais and mortar, both which hold moisture very well. Our hunting unit is Unit 1. I learned from a Game and Fish guy the other night that this is where they are transplanting herds of antelope. There is often a herd on and near our property with 200+ head of antelope. There is also deer and elk. Hunting is a viable food option and we are hunters. There is a lake in town about 12 miles away. We haven't tested the livestock tanks for fish yet but there are a few tanks visible from the top of our hill.

Cordwood for structures will be harvested locally. A wood permit for two cord of wood is $25. No big deal. We love cutting wood. We are more than happy to go on wood cutting trips with people. My husband has been a carpenter and third generation logger. We could probably, with help, get enough wood in 2-3 trips. It has to age 6 months if its not cut dry. We have dry stuff on our place but it may be too dry. There are burn areas around where you can harvest all the wood for free as well with the right permit that is easy to obtain. It's in the burn areas but to all of it is burned. Even a burned tree may have quite a bit of unburned wood on it.

About the mortgage...the mortgage is paid off 100%. My CA brother and I bought this land together. We own it 50/50. He says there is a 0-5% chance of him ever living there. He has never stepped foot on it. He is totally cool with people being there, but prefers all structures be built on "my" half. The other half he is fine with tilling, gardening, using, etc. He has no idea what he might want to do with his half in 30-50 years. Respectfully, I will not put permanent structures on his part. I will be using it though and gardens can be placed all over it. My brother paid off the land several months ago. I pay him for my portion every month until my half is paid off; about 7 more years, but the bank is out of the picture now. The taxes are about $150 per year on the parcel (not per acre). Rent will be cheap and there will be some rent as it satisfies a requirement for a lawful lease which protects you and me.

People have charged us with wanting people out there to help us build and then plan to kick them off. This is simply not the case. We need people there. We were out there Sunday and the travel trailer that we have out there had been ransacked....for the 5th time. When trips are made to town we need people out there. Enough people that if we want a few of us to ride together there is still a few to stay behind. People that we trust. We want and need people that we can trust. We cannot live out there alone. It is remote and thieves know that. Everything is free for the taking UNLESS YOU HAVE TRUSTWORTHY PEOPLE THERE. Yes, charge us with wanting to "use" you out there. I use my neighbors in town. They watch my back. If we will be gone for a few days I tell them to keep an eye out for our stuff. We are moving out there. Our house and our preps will be out there. We risk bringing people in but we have to have people there, GOOD PEOPLE. I think most people are good and we need to find some of them. It's not easy living. But we don't want the conveniences of town. Town is a short trip away.

This is our BOL. We have a backup BOL a days walk away. Worst case scenario of having to bug out of this BOL to our other BOL I don't see why, unless someone is complete a$$ why I wouldn't allow everyone to go over the hill to our other BOL. We want and need people. We are not doing this alone.

Water is our biggest concern. That's why you plan on using it twice; fresh and gray. We were going to go with this toilet to save water http://humanurehandbook.com/humanure_toilet.html We ended opting for a flush. We may have one of these outdoors for daytime, warm weather use. No smell but you have to build a compost bin and manage it. We have composting worms which people say won't eat human waste. Well, the worms never got that memo. This method requires everyone to manage their own waste in the appropriate and recommended safe manner. It's not rocket science.

How are we going to handle living out there? Instead of working and laboring to give the govt a 50% cut we will labor for ourselves. Currently, we well rabbits commercially. We are scaling back to get moved and build but that has paid our bills in town where we have real bills. Out there, our bills will be 1/5 what they are in town. We have some other plans for income as well. We don't mind, when opportunities come up, to let others in on opportunities to make a little money. We won't be doing anything that will make us rich though. If people have difficulty making rent out there, we can barter. There is cactus all over that needs to be dug up and burned. We want rock walls built. Etc.

I want and need a small community to work. Granted, people will not own the dirt under them. I live in a manufactured home park and have for 15 years. I pay $320 per month and don't own the dirt under me. A lease protects me from being kicked off. I will never own the dirt under this house. Oh, which, btw, I am keeping so there is a place to stay in town if necessary. Weather may force it occasionally. Proper planning and weather watching should be sufficient but if someone ever needs to stay a night it can be arranged as an option on occasion. The park rules don't provide for people outside of family but the management here is completely out of touch with the tenants. The main issue is the busy bodied neighbors.

I don't mind a million questions. This is easier than having people come out and find that it's not what they expected. I'm not trying to make things seem better than they are to trick anyone into coming. I have turned away a few folks already. This is not welfare community. I don't care if you need to come because you are out of other options but there won't be leeches. One person I turned away because they didn't want to deal with their own poop. That's an issue. Everybody poops and out there you have to deal with your own poop. We can build an outhouse with the composting method but it still has to be dealt with.

I think I answered all of your questions. If not, re-ask. I do have things we can share. I have enough garden seed for a battalion for several years over. There are some things we have in abundance. We will share what we want to share. No one will be forced to be in compliance with being neighborly beyond the point of watching out for everyone else. I would like to have a community of friendliness but I don't want overly intrusive friendliness where I can't get anything done because of people who like to do nothing but visit. I like visiting and we can have potlucks, etc. I do plan on voluntary monthly meetings to discuss needs and concerns. I don't care if people come out there to do nothing all day if they can support themselves like that. We don't have a pension or retirement. The property is our retirement. My husband and I will be out there working the land and our livestock. If someone wants a job in town, that's fine with me. No one is stuck out there. We will get enough people out there to provide enough traffic to keep troublemakers off the property. I'm looking on this forum because this is the type of people we want. Some people could never get BOL. This can fill that need. Anyway...I will stop there. It's not for everyone. We did have one veteran living out there for an entire winter with no power or heat. He loved it. The entire area is a shooting range and on top of that there are varmints to call in...fun stuff!

We have two trailer axels out there for use as well: https://www.google.com/search?q=tiny...w=1024&bih=672

Last edited by Ellen; 02-19-2013 at 08:33 AM..
Old 02-19-2013, 08:10 AM
Ellen Ellen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
Interesting offer, I hope the right person come along to fill your needs.

You might consider writing into the terms a sort of trial period before the full lease is signed.
I am all for trial periods. I would also welcome, AFTER there are people out there, seasonal set ups for people who may need to have it for BOL post-shtf. I know some people aren't able to make a run for it until after the fact. Right now there aren't enough people out there to safeguard. The cost won't be much more than the cost of a typical storage unit rental either.
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