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Old 04-16-2012, 09:55 AM
Downeast Downeast is offline
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Default Black talon Ammo?



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Anyone ever hear of this? It is no longer made (replace by SXT) and I guess it was controversial in its time even though there is appears to be no evidence it is any more damaging than any other JHP.

Anyway, I helped my neighbor with my Kubota and he gave me over 100 rounds in 9mm of the stuff, plus a few hundred rounds of practice ammo.
Old 04-16-2012, 10:00 AM
5H4N3 5H4N3 is offline
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Black Talon was the BEST defense ammo in the world!
It performed perfectly, and it created horrendous wound channels.

It was good stuff, so the Clinton administration banned it.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:12 AM
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I may have a box of .40 cal black talon.
Old 04-16-2012, 10:52 AM
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If you look up tests on Youtube you will see that the BT's are good but not really all that remarkable. The claims were that they went through ballistic body armor, opened up in razor like death petals and then, when they hit flesh - they swam around the body.

It was a political move on a specifically named bullet type.

LE buddy of mine sat in a session where they lugged out 10,000 rounds of BT for a burn out session. All .40cal and they shot it so much they got to the point where they did not/could not really shoot anymore.

Although they are definitely solid bullets in good loads and something you could depend upon, the fact that they were banned has made the mystique around them huge over the years.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:01 AM
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Filthy_McNasty Filthy_McNasty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5H4N3 View Post
Black Talon was the BEST defense ammo in the world!
It performed perfectly, and it created horrendous wound channels.

It was good stuff, so the Clinton administration banned it.
That's not even remotely close to the truth.. Stop spreading rumors and foolish nonsense about something you obviously know nothing about. Winchester voluntarily stopped selling it over the counter to Joe Average because of negative publicity from liberal media sources, and that maniac Colin Ferguson who killed all those people in the NY subway. It also has a catchy name that sheeple love to hate.

Black Talon is now replaced by the much better performing Ranger-T ammo. Black Talon was decent ammo twenty years ago; much better choices are available now
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:10 AM
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I heard the sharp edges created a hazard for surgeons who "felt" to locate bullets during surgery. This was part of the voluntary production stop.

P.S. I still have 3/4 Box of Black Talon in .357 Magnum.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:17 PM
5H4N3 5H4N3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filthy_McNasty View Post
That's not even remotely close to the truth.. Stop spreading rumors and foolish nonsense about something you obviously know nothing about. Winchester voluntarily stopped selling it over the counter to Joe Average because of negative publicity from liberal media sources, and that maniac Colin Ferguson who killed all those people in the NY subway. It also has a catchy name that sheeple love to hate.

Black Talon is now replaced by the much better performing Ranger-T ammo. Black Talon was decent ammo twenty years ago; much better choices are available now


You are absolutely correct.
It WAS in fact pulled voluntarily, in the face of an imminent ban, which was the result of a media smear campaign, which in turn got the justice department, and congress all riled up about "cop killer bullets".

My mistake, the ole memory (about 20 year old trivia) aint what it used to be.

As far as subjects I know nothing about...
Well, I was a Deputy Sheriff at the time, carried black talons on shift every day, and probably fired 1500 rounds of them in testing. I guess I know enough about the subject to stand by my original assessment that they WERE(remember this was the early 90's) the BEST defensive ammo in the world.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:01 PM
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At the time it was the best.

Clinton Admin w/friends were threatening a ban.

Winchester stopped selling them because of threats from Gov, bad press.

Surgeons jumped onboard saying that the bullet would creat a sharp petal and they risk cutting the surgeon.

Winchester had been working on a better design and came out with a better product.

So all of you were right
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5H4N3 View Post
Black Talon was the BEST defense ammo in the world!
It performed perfectly, and it created horrendous wound channels.

It was good stuff, so the Clinton administration banned it.
It was neither "banned" nor the most effective load.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:47 PM
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Nearly all expanded jacketed hollowpoint bullets have sharp edges. W-W Ranger-T and T-Series still features the sharp "talons". Remington Golden Sabers to a lesser degree.. This is common knowledge for surgeons.


Twenty years later rumors and falsehoods regarding BT ammunition are still around stronger than ever because of the intrawebz.


Here are a few facts:

Black Talons aren't Teflon coated (the coating's called Lubalox)
They aren't illegal to purchase or possess
They aren't armor piercing or have a tungsten core
They cannot penetrate body armor
Winchester voluntarily withdrew them for sale to the public, added brass cases, renamed them to "SXT", and limited their availablity to law enforment and military only.

They're now called Ranger-T and T-Series. Black Talon were never the best choice, that's internet hyperbole
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:49 PM
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Black Talon was neither the best or the worst defensive ammo.
What killed it was Media Hype and Winchester.

Others have been made since that are more effective and work better, but do not use the "inflamatory words" for the name.

Klinton had nothing to do with banning the ammo other than influencing the News Media.

I bought three cases of Black Talon the day the New Papers first printed the story, .45acp, 9mm and .38spl..

I once ask a ER Doc where my wife was a flight nurse if he had any trouble with Black Talon and removing them.
His only answer was "Complete and total BS."

Jungle Work
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:33 PM
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Thanks for all the responses. I'll save 'em for defensive ammo, I also have a bunch of new Hornady TAP 124 gr for that purpose.

I'd say over 100 rounds of the Black talon and over 300 rounds of practive ammo ain't bad for an hours worth of tractor work.
Old 04-16-2012, 05:13 PM
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If you don't care about having black talons, they go for a pretty good amount on gun broker. I just did a quick search and saw the average price for 25 of them in 9mm is around $40-$50. I'd probably sell them. If you don't want to do gun broker, gun shows will generally net you a buyer on them as people get all excited when they see them.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:44 PM
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Many premium hollow-points will do as good a job.

Still have a box of 9mm "for a rainy day".
Old 04-16-2012, 08:45 PM
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You seem to have a really good neighbor!
Old 04-17-2012, 12:00 PM
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I don't remember where I read it, but they said SXT meant same exact thing.
Old 04-17-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filthy_McNasty View Post
That's not even remotely close to the truth.. Stop spreading rumors and foolish nonsense about something you obviously know nothing about. Winchester voluntarily stopped selling it over the counter to Joe Average because of negative publicity from liberal media sources, and that maniac Colin Ferguson who killed all those people in the NY subway. It also has a catchy name that sheeple love to hate.

Black Talon is now replaced by the much better performing Ranger-T ammo. Black Talon was decent ammo twenty years ago; much better choices are available now
This.

Black Talon, not unlike Hydrashok, were state of the art 20 years ago, but have been dramatically surpassed by the likes of HST, Winchester Ranger T, DPX, Gold Dot, etc. (See list).

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

I wonder how many times I have reposted this list and link....
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filthy_McNasty View Post
Nearly all expanded jacketed hollowpoint bullets have sharp edges. W-W Ranger-T and T-Series still features the sharp "talons". Remington Golden Sabers to a lesser degree.. This is common knowledge for surgeons.


Twenty years later rumors and falsehoods regarding BT ammunition are still around stronger than ever because of the intrawebz.


Here are a few facts:

Black Talons aren't Teflon coated (the coating's called Lubalox)
They aren't illegal to purchase or possess
They aren't armor piercing or have a tungsten core
They cannot penetrate body armor
Winchester voluntarily withdrew them for sale to the public, added brass cases, renamed them to "SXT", and limited their availablity to law enforment and military only.

They're now called Ranger-T and T-Series. Black Talon were never the best choice, that's internet hyperbole
All of the above is true except that "they are available to LE and military only". Local gun shop has the new ammo for sale to the public.
I just gave my son-in-law some of the original.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martom50 View Post
All of the above is true except that "they are available to LE and military only". Local gun shop has the new ammo for sale to the public.
I just gave my son-in-law some of the original.
That happened in 1993. Not anymore..
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:00 PM
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WHAT FILTHY SAID...........if thats your real name...

IIRC it was kinda like a "Pin Grabber" it didn't leave any thing much to put back together..and it was a Black bullet and we know if it was Black it was more deadly than the Gold ones...it was tacticool before its time

are you saying they had NEW boxes off Talons....not N.O.S. but NEW....think before you answer....I had some new in box given to my wife bout 5 months been in a friends safe....didn'tuse .45 any more..
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