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Old 09-11-2011, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gondwana View Post
WWJD?

Dunno maybe do what he always did, get to the point (even if in parables), not split hairs...the point, no the REAL point.

What is the REAL point of Jesus?

I have enough trouble staying focused on Him, but hair splitting takes me off on tangents

WWJD?

Not sure he'd become a catholic, pretty sure he was Jewish and observed the Jewish Sabbath...then again He healed some 7 times on the Sabbath so perhaps the Sabbath is something that should set us apart but bring us together, not bring us together to set upon one another
Yo, ha ha.. the Ruach got ahold of gondwana ! Just lov'n it.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:53 PM
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And of course the fulfillment of the covenant is still future...time to get a "leg-up" on it now! Torah to be written on the hearts of everyone, from the least to the greatest...and there will be no more need to teach anyone about it!
It is not the fulfillment of the covenant which is future, but the completeness of the covenant which is future. The fulfillment of the covenant has already been underway, by the first coming of Christ to the earth, and through His redemptive work; it will be made complete upon His return.

A covenant is a promise, not a contract. That promise was given to us by Christ, when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit to us in His stead. That is the new covenant of which Jeremiah had prophesied. If you fail to acknowledge this is the covenant, then you will be subject to the same rut as those who lived under the Mosaic covenant prior to Christ's first coming.

Hypothetically speaking, suppose that someone asks, "Please come to work for me, and I'll pay you a weekly salary until the job is completed." And you agree. As an employee you have fulfilled your promise to work for them, and they have fulfilled their promise to pay you for your labors. But is the actual job for which you have been hired, yet completed? No! Because you have been offered a weekly salary, which infers that the job will take more than a week to finish. So while you have each fulfilled your promises, the job is still one which continues. Either one of you can renege your promises for what you have stated that you would do, and then the job will never come to completion as a result. But until then, your promises to one another are still ongoing; they are ongoing until the job is complete. Once the job is actually finished, the promises you made to one another will be complete. Notice how "fulfilled" and "completed" do not always mean the same thing.

The Torah-observant will generally state that it is the Holy Spirit which enables them to observe the Mosaic covenant. But if they believe that it's the Spirit which gives strength to do that, then they cannot help but acknowledge that the prophecy of Jeremiah has been fulfilled, because the promise of Christ's Holy Spirit is ongoing. The promise is with us today! And if the Spirit is giving the strength to live God's law, then it's not through Torah-observance, but through the Spirit!

The Holy Spirit had been sent with the purpose of ministering and teaching us, until Christ is to return. The Holy Spirit is our "employer", who offers to teach us until Christ returns, and we as the "worker", have agreed to be guided by the Spirit until Christ returns. When Christ does indeed return, then the role (or "job") of the Holy Spirit will have been completed, and then from that point onward Christ will resume the role of our teacher.

Jeremiah's prophecy is not speaking of the future. It was a prophesy which was already fulfilled with the first coming of Christ. It speaks of the promise of Christ to send the Holy Spirit as our counselor. And the Spirit is with us today. It's been with all those of Christ, since Christ's first coming. The prophesy has already been fulfilled, but the promise cannot be completed until Christ returns.

The prophecy of Jeremiah and the new covenant had been reserved for the promise of Christ's Holy Spirit, which He said would be sent to His believers. One cannot take this prophecy and attempt to apply it for something other than what it was intended, because it was reserved. It's as though someone is trying to get a second automobile into an already occupied parking space.

In Christ,

-Tom
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:59 PM
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Agreed, but the 'argument' here is this. Is repenting a ONE time deal. Is it something you do ONLY once at your 'conversion' or is it something one does often. As often as one sins?

And as a side note, for I'm not sure this has been adressed? When we sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we first ask for forgivness, and turn from this action; repent of it.

Why do we turn/repent? Obviously because we want to try to not do that same sin again. That to me is the importance of repentence.

When I sin I say this pray, "Father, I humbly beg Your forgiveness for _______, and I repent of it and I turn from that sin."

YMMV
Here's the thing: You're basing a doctrine (having to ask for forgiveness over and over for sins bled and died for - a practice not taught anywhere in Scripture after the work of the Cross) on a false definition of the word 'repent'.

As both Vectorwoman and I have proven, 'repent' never means 'turn', 'return' or 'turn back'.

You're using a Hebrew root word common to both teshuwbah and nacham - the root word, 'shuwb', and inserting that root word's definition into a text and throwing out the actual definition of the actual word used in a text! What you're doing is akin to defining the word 'butterfly' by its root words, 'butter' and 'fly', neither of which go to the actual definition of the word, 'butterfly'!

It's also changing the Word of God as He ordained it .

Not only that, but you are then taking that same HEBREW root word's definition and applying that to GREEK words with their own definitions !

You cannot do that! Remember, God ordained that certain words be used in certain places - you cannot just go 'round substituting words here and there to make/fit a particular theology! The funny thing is that the Hebrew words for 'repent' and the Greek words for 'repent' are in agreement in their definitions - there is no need to substitute a root word in the first place!

The kind of repentance that leads to salvation IS a one time deal. Once we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, all of our sins are forgiven. That is what the Scriptures tell us! To ask for forgiveness for sins already forgiven by the Blood of Jesus is unnecessary and not taught in Scriptures written after the Cross.

Some will jump to 1 John 1:9, citing that as a perpetual practice for those in Christ, but it says that God is "faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

So did God do what He said He would do or not?
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
How many trespasses?

Is there still place for repentance (the change of heart and mind, remorse for sin) in the life of the believer? Absolutely. But it has no tie to salvation or the securing of God's forgiveness for the believer in Christ. As the Holy Spirit sanctifies those in Christ repentance by those in Christ has to do with the renewing of our minds:
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
No more forgiveness for sin is required for those in Christ. Jesus' Blood covered all sin for those in Him. You are either a forgiven person or not. The only continuing sacrifice mentioned after the Cross for those in Christ is us offering ourselves up as living sacrifices - submitting to the Holy Spirit, letting Him do His work of sanctification in us. Will that require some 'changing of our minds and hearts' and 'remorse and sorrow for sin' along the way? Of course it will - but it does not go to forgiveness already given for sins already cleansed and cast as far as the East is from the West by the shed Blood of Christ at the Cross.

Please don't confuse, "Oh God, I messed up, I'm so sorry. Please help me to not do _________ again and live the way you want me to" with "Oh God, I messed up, please forgive me of that sin."

If you are in Christ, you ARE forgiven !

-JGIG
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by armourbearer View Post
Is repenting a ONE time deal. Is it something you do ONLY once at your 'conversion' or is it something one does often. As often as one sins?

And as a side note, for I'm not sure this has been adressed? When we sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we first ask for forgiveness, and turn from this action; repent of it.
Thanks AB !
Marriage and repentance are supposed to be entered into "until death do you part".
Sorry in advance for the borrowed use of the relationship cliche.
But repentance or "brokenness" can be approached as religion or as an affinity.
Sure we may have glitches, maybe not make the better choice...
proving our ignorance, weakness or immaturity far to many times
but to willfully sin against and grieve Christ....suggests a failed chemistry.
We had better do much more than just be sorry for some event at that point.
In that instance we need to Love and make amends and assurances.
That is if we truly enjoy and earnestly covet the Holy Presence of Christ.
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by comandante1970 View Post
So that's a no, in your opinion Catholicism is not Christian. Boy, I had you all wrong. I disagree with a lot of your interpretations, but I thought you were smarter than this.
Catholicism is a religious system. Much of what constitutes Roman Catholicism is extra-Biblical. Yet God can still work in the heart of the individual in spite of systematic religion .

Quote:
By the way, I'm not sure why you think that religion is a dirty word and you pretend that you are not in one. If you claim to be a Christian, you are in a religion. Anyone who believes in God is.

religion [ri-lij-uhn]

re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn]

noun

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when
considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of
religions.

4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
The 'practice' of Christianity is rather simple compared to most religious 'systems' today. Love God, love others, be baptized (not required for salvation, merely a public declaration of one's faith and trust in Jesus Christ), and remember Christ in the Bread and the Wine. Beyond that, James says this about religion:
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Oh that we could align ourselves fully with that . . . !

-JGIG
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by embrachu View Post
It is not the fulfillment of the covenant which is future, but the completeness of the covenant which is future.
In Christ,

-Tom
Fair 'nuff!

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my TORAH in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Meantime...do and teach...

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the TORAH, and make it honourable.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his TORAH.



COME Yeshua!
Old 09-11-2011, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
Here's the thing: You're basing a doctrine (having to ask for forgiveness over and over for sins bled and died for - a practice not taught anywhere in Scripture after the work of the Cross) on a false definition of the word 'repent'.

As both Vectorwoman and I have proven, 'repent' never means 'turn', 'return' or 'turn back'.

You're using a Hebrew root word common to both teshuwbah and nacham - the root word, 'shuwb', and inserting that root word's definition into a text and throwing out the actual definition of the actual word used in a text! What you're doing is akin to defining the word 'butterfly' by its root words, 'butter' and 'fly', neither of which go to the actual definition of the word, 'butterfly'!

It's also changing the Word of God as He ordained it .

Not only that, but you are then taking that same HEBREW root word's definition and applying that to GREEK words with their own definitions !

You cannot do that! Remember, God ordained that certain words be used in certain places - you cannot just go 'round substituting words here and there to make/fit a particular theology! The funny thing is that the Hebrew words for 'repent' and the Greek words for 'repent' are in agreement in their definitions - there is no need to substitute a root word in the first place!

The kind of repentance that leads to salvation IS a one time deal. Once we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, all of our sins are forgiven. That is what the Scriptures tell us! To ask for forgiveness for sins already forgiven by the Blood of Jesus is unnecessary and not taught in Scriptures written after the Cross.

Some will jump to 1 John 1:9, citing that as a perpetual practice for those in Christ, but it says that God is "faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

So did God do what He said He would do or not?
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
How many trespasses?

Is there still place for repentance (the change of heart and mind, remorse for sin) in the life of the believer? Absolutely. But it has no tie to salvation or the securing of God's forgiveness for the believer in Christ. As the Holy Spirit sanctifies those in Christ repentance by those in Christ has to do with the renewing of our minds:
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
No more forgiveness for sin is required for those in Christ. Jesus' Blood covered all sin for those in Him. You are either a forgiven person or not. The only continuing sacrifice mentioned after the Cross for those in Christ is us offering ourselves up as living sacrifices - submitting to the Holy Spirit, letting Him do His work of sanctification in us. Will that require some 'changing of our minds and hearts' and 'remorse and sorrow for sin' along the way? Of course it will - but it does not go to forgiveness already given for sins already cleansed and cast as far as the East is from the West by the shed Blood of Christ at the Cross.

Please don't confuse, "Oh God, I messed up, I'm so sorry. Please help me to not do _________ again and live the way you want me to" with "Oh God, I messed up, please forgive me of that sin."

If you are in Christ, you ARE forgiven !

-JGIG
I see repentance from a couple of angles.

On the one hand, I believe that conversion to Christianity occurs when the Holy Spirit leads us to this self recognition that we're in a fallen state and that we're in need of a Savior and that nothing we can do on our own power can improve upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I believe that with that knowledge comes this overwhelming sense of contrition and repentance for all of our past sins and for mental/spiritual state of mind that we had prior to conversion. That act of repentance is a one time thing and comes with the realization that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and that without Him and His blood sacrifice we're doomed and without hope. I do believe that that level of repentance is a one time event that comes with our internal/spiritual change.

On the other hand, I believe that the Hebrew Rooters are saying (and I may be wrong here) that we're still in a fallen state and that we will continually have to turn from our daily shortcomings. I know where they are coming from and find myself asking for forgiveness for getting angry on the freeway or becoming callus towards our evil world or looking at a woman with wrong intent. I do repent of these small but nagging sins whenever they rear their ugly head.

Is it possible to see repentance on two different levels?
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tachmonite View Post
Thanks AB !
Marriage and repentance are supposed to be entered into "until death do you part".
Sorry in advance for the borrowed use of the relationship cliche.
But repentance or "brokenness" can be approached as religion or as an affinity.
Sure we may have glitches, maybe not make the better choice...
proving our ignorance, weakness or immaturity far to many times
but to willfully sin against and grieve Christ....suggests a failed chemistry.
We had better do much more than just be sorry for some event at that point.
In that instance we need to Love and make amends and assurances.
That is if we truly enjoy and earnestly covet the Holy Presence of Christ.
Okay I might not be the smartest knife in the drawer, but I think you're agreeing with me; right?

And Tach...no offense please, but us 'senior citizens' wear bi-focals or, in my case, tri-focals and that tiny font and orange color are hard on the eyes....
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:48 PM
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So for those who go with the once saved always saved regardless of action so long as u believe (even though demons believe)

How do u reconcile this?


Hebrews 10

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries



Do u know how many deliberate sinning Christians I know?

Many

Should I try and tell them to repent if they already believe in Yeshua? If once saved always save was correct then there would be no reason for me to have to do so.

But we know that's not the case when Yeshua's message was REPENT for the Kingdom of Heaven in near.

There are a thousand and one examples in the OT of what Is expected of us in order to repent. an essay on the different definitions for the word Repent isnt required when YHWH states word for word many times what is and has always been required.
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
Here's the thing: You're basing a doctrine (having to ask for forgiveness over and over for sins bled and died for - a practice not taught anywhere in Scripture after the work of the Cross) on a false definition of the word 'repent'.

As both Vectorwoman and I have proven, 'repent' never means 'turn', 'return' or 'turn back'.

You're using a Hebrew root word common to both teshuwbah and nacham - the root word, 'shuwb', and inserting that root word's definition into a text and throwing out the actual definition of the actual word used in a text! What you're doing is akin to defining the word 'butterfly' by its root words, 'butter' and 'fly', neither of which go to the actual definition of the word, 'butterfly'!

It's also changing the Word of God as He ordained it .

Not only that, but you are then taking that same HEBREW root word's definition and applying that to GREEK words with their own definitions !

You cannot do that! Remember, God ordained that certain words be used in certain places - you cannot just go 'round substituting words here and there to make/fit a particular theology! The funny thing is that the Hebrew words for 'repent' and the Greek words for 'repent' are in agreement in their definitions - there is no need to substitute a root word in the first place!

The kind of repentance that leads to salvation IS a one time deal. Once we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, all of our sins are forgiven. That is what the Scriptures tell us! To ask for forgiveness for sins already forgiven by the Blood of Jesus is unnecessary and not taught in Scriptures written after the Cross.

Some will jump to 1 John 1:9, citing that as a perpetual practice for those in Christ, but it says that God is "faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

So did God do what He said He would do or not?
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
How many trespasses?

Is there still place for repentance (the change of heart and mind, remorse for sin) in the life of the believer? Absolutely. But it has no tie to salvation or the securing of God's forgiveness for the believer in Christ. As the Holy Spirit sanctifies those in Christ repentance by those in Christ has to do with the renewing of our minds:
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
No more forgiveness for sin is required for those in Christ. Jesus' Blood covered all sin for those in Him. You are either a forgiven person or not. The only continuing sacrifice mentioned after the Cross for those in Christ is us offering ourselves up as living sacrifices - submitting to the Holy Spirit, letting Him do His work of sanctification in us. Will that require some 'changing of our minds and hearts' and 'remorse and sorrow for sin' along the way? Of course it will - but it does not go to forgiveness already given for sins already cleansed and cast as far as the East is from the West by the shed Blood of Christ at the Cross.

Please don't confuse, "Oh God, I messed up, I'm so sorry. Please help me to not do _________ again and live the way you want me to" with "Oh God, I messed up, please forgive me of that sin."

If you are in Christ, you ARE forgiven !

-JGIG
Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?





Hmmm.............


I keep hearing "I don't sin"....

1 John 1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Old 09-11-2011, 04:17 PM
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Orignally posted by JGIG

Quote:
You're using a Hebrew root word common to both teshuwbah and nacham - the root word, 'shuwb', and inserting that root word's definition into a text and throwing out the actual definition of the actual word used in a text! What you're doing is akin to defining the word 'butterfly' by its root words, 'butter' and 'fly', neither of which go to the actual definition of the word, 'butterfly'!
The Hebrew word for repentence is teshuvah and is from two words שוב shuv (to return) and נחם nicham (to feel sorrow).

In the Greek it's μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", [a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing]. The preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different':'to think differently after'.

Quote:
To ask for forgiveness for sins already forgiven by the Blood of Jesus is unnecessary and not taught in Scriptures written after the Cross.
Ah, perhaps I am mistaken but I do believe the book of Luke was written after the cross; no? Scholars say between AD 59 to 62

See the story of the prodical son in Luke 15. And in Acts we see Paul still teaching that all me are to repent.

Acts 17:
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


Why?

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

An interesting link about teshuvah:

http://jtdyer.com/dailydevo/?p=218
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:23 PM
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Actually, JGIG is completely consistent in her theology of "once saved, always saved". Her posts on sin actually are the end result of this theology and is entirely consistent which I applaud her for.

Now, of course, this brings in the issue of God CONDONING sinful behavior because it was already forgiven. Again, this brings up the debate of degrees of sin......as in murder is worse than making a lie....

...but these same folks don't buy the "degree" thing because it's too "Catholic" sounding (mortal/venial) and say all sin is sin just the same. Contradiction. Oh, and a "real" Christian will never do SERIOUS sin.....but I don't believe in degrees of sin?

But all this flows much better when you approach it from my perspective.....

...which is the "once saved, be careful" theology.

Turn or burn. And turning is more than a one-time thing if you're a human living on planet earth.
Old 09-11-2011, 05:03 PM
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The kind of repentance that leads to salvation IS a one time deal. Once we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, all of our sins are forgiven. That is what the Scriptures tell us! To ask for forgiveness for sins already forgiven by the Blood of Jesus is unnecessary and not taught in Scriptures written after the Cross.

-JGIG
Shhhhhhh. Don't tell these poor folks who thought the same thing, apparently:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness, BTW).

And oh my...

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Wow Jgrow...what's up with all that? Maybe not so 'good to go' as you may think, eh?

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Fear and tremble much?

Old 09-11-2011, 05:10 PM
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The Hebrew word for repentence is teshuvah and is from two words שוב shuv (to return) and נחם nicham (to feel sorrow).
Teshuwbah is NOT made up from two words, it is the Hebrew word for repent which has one root word, shuwb:
Strong's H8666 - tĕshuwbah
Root Word (Etymology)

From שׁוּב (H7725) (shuwb)

And means:
1) a recurrence, an answer, return
a) return
1) completion of a year, return of a year
b) at the return (construct)
c) answer, reply
Teshuwbah is used 8 times in the OT, and in each usage it NEVER ONCE, not even one single time means 'repent':

1Sa 7:17And his return8666 [was] to Ramah 7414; for there [was] his house 1004; and there he judged 8199 Israel 3478; and there he built 1129 an altar 4196 unto the LORD 3068.

2Sa 11:1
And it came to pass, after the year 8141 was expired8666, at the time 6256 when kings 4428 4397 go forth 3318 [to battle], that David 1732 sent 7971 Joab 3097, and his servants 5650 with him, and all Israel 3478; and they destroyed 7843 the children 1121 of Ammon 5983, and besieged 6696 Rabbah 7237. But David 1732 tarried still 3427 at Jerusalem 3389.

1Ki 20:22
And the prophet 5030 came 5066 to the king 4428 of Israel 3478, and said 559 unto him, Go 3212 , strengthen 2388 thyself, and mark 3045 , and see 7200 what thou doest 6213 : for at the return8666 of the year 8141 the king 4428 of Syria 758 will come up 5927 against thee.

1Ki 20:26
And it came to pass at the return8666 of the year 8141, that Benhadad 1130 numbered 6485 the Syrians 758, and went up 5927 to Aphek 663, to fight 4421 against Israel 3478.

1Ch 20:1
And it came to pass, that after 6256 the year 8141 was expired8666, at the time 6256 that kings 4428 go out 3318 [to battle], Joab 3097 led forth 5090 the power 2428 of the army 6635, and wasted 7843 the country 776 of the children 1121 of Ammon 5983, and came 935 and besieged 6696 Rabbah 7237. But David 1732 tarried 3427 at Jerusalem 3389. And Joab 3097 smote 5221 Rabbah 7237, and destroyed 2040 it.

2Ch 36:10
And when the year 8141 was expired8666, king 4428 Nebuchadnezzar 5019 sent 7971 , and brought 935 him to Babylon 894, with the goodly 2532 vessels 3627 of the house 1004 of the LORD 3068, and made Zedekiah 6667 his brother 251 king 4427 over Judah 3063 and Jerusalem 3389.

Job 21:34
How then comfort 5162 ye me in vain 1892, seeing in your answers8666 there remaineth 7604 falsehood 4604?

Job 34:36
My desire 15 1 [is that] Job 347 may be tried 974 unto the end 5331 because of [his] answers8666 for wicked 205 men 582.
  1. 1 Sam. 7:17 - return
  2. 2 Sam. 11:1 - expired
  3. 1 Kings 20:22 - return
  4. 1 Kings 20:26 - return
  5. 1 Chron. 20:1 - expired
  6. 2 Chron. 36:10 - expired
  7. Job 21:34 - answers
  8. Job 34:35 - answers
Again, Teshuwbah is used 8 times in the OT, and in each usage it NEVER ONCE, not even one single time does teshuwbah mean 'repent'.


The Scriptures do not support the HRM meaning for 'repent', period.

Quote:
In the Greek it's μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", [a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing]. The preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different':'to think differently after'.
Brings to mind the Scripture
Philippians 3:12-16
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Quote:
Ah, perhaps I am mistaken but I do believe the book of Luke was written after the cross; no? Scholars say between AD 59 to 62

See the story of the prodical son in Luke 15. And in Acts we see Paul still teaching that all me are to repent.
Did the book of Luke depict events before the WORK of the Cross? Come on . . .


Quote:
Acts 17:
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Why?

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
All men everywhere? Would that be a change of heart and mind as to their sinful state and who Jesus is and putting their faith and trust in Him or simply turning from their pagan ways to Torah?

Which one of those scenarios saves?


Quote:
An interesting link about teshuvah:

http://jtdyer.com/dailydevo/?p=218
I read through the entire post of the link you provided and it simply repeats the error that teshuwbah means repent. It does not. Not one, single, solitary time in all of Scripture. That is complete and utter abuse of the Hebrew and Greek languages and is blatant error. Please forgive my bluntness, but I cannot understand how you cannot see this!

Blessings,
-JGIG
Old 09-11-2011, 05:19 PM
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Please forgive my bluntness, but I cannot understand how you cannot see this!

Blessings,
-JGIG
OK, Jgrow...we get it...you don't repent when you sin.

I don't see you getting a lot of agreement with your doctrine, but hey...give 'er your best shot!

Hope it all works out for ya'!

Old 09-11-2011, 05:23 PM
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I see repentance from a couple of angles.

On the one hand, I believe that conversion to Christianity occurs when the Holy Spirit leads us to this self recognition that we're in a fallen state and that we're in need of a Savior and that nothing we can do on our own power can improve upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I believe that with that knowledge comes this overwhelming sense of contrition and repentance for all of our past sins and for mental/spiritual state of mind that we had prior to conversion. That act of repentance is a one time thing and comes with the realization that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and that without Him and His blood sacrifice we're doomed and without hope. I do believe that that level of repentance is a one time event that comes with our internal/spiritual change.

On the other hand, I believe that the Hebrew Rooters are saying (and I may be wrong here) that we're still in a fallen state and that we will continually have to turn from our daily shortcomings. I know where they are coming from and find myself asking for forgiveness for getting angry on the freeway or becoming callus towards our evil world or looking at a woman with wrong intent. I do repent of these small but nagging sins whenever they rear their ugly head.

Is it possible to see repentance on two different levels?
Yes, but not from the forgiveness angle. If you sin against your brother/sister - who do you need to seek forgiveness from?
James 5:16
16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
None of us can judge another's heart - God knows who is truly His and at what stage in their walk they are. An example I used a while back:

We may see a 300 lb. person and think, "What a glutton! Look at the apparent lack of self-control that person has!"

What we DON'T know, however, is that that person USED to be 500 lbs., and is incredibly self-disciplined and we're only seeing them part way through their journey.

We tend to do the same with sinners, saved though they may truly be!

Back to repentance - yes, two levels, the first leading to salvation, the second, the process of sanctification of the forgiven person.
1 Corinthians 7:8-13a
8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12 So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13 By all this we are encouraged.
-JGIG
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:46 PM
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So for those who go with the once saved always saved regardless of action so long as u believe (even though demons believe)

How do u reconcile this?
Easily. Do demons put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ?

Do those who are in Christ?

Do you believe that a parachute can carry you safely from a high altitude to the ground below?

Yep. We all believe that that is the case.

But until we're willing to strap one on and jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet we're not putting our faith and trust in that parachute, are we . . .

The parachute is an imperfect metephor bacause they rarely do fail and Jesus NEVER fails !


Quote:
Hebrews 10

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries

Do u know how many deliberate sinning Christians I know?

Many
Sin is sin is sin when it comes to separation from God.

Did Jesus' work at the Cross mean anything or not?

What did it mean?

Is the Hebrews 10:26-27 passage for you to warn others about their sin, or to warn US to be ever mindful of the precious Blood of Jesus that was shed for us and not to trample on that by just going out and sinning willy nilly?

Quote:
Should I try and tell them to repent if they already believe in Yeshua? If once saved always save was correct then there would be no reason for me to have to do so.
Do you have an intent for a mind/heart change for them or for them just to follow the rules?

What does God have in mind for us in Christ?

Do you think it was His intent to make a bunch of little Law keepers out of those who put their faith and trust in the reality of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished with the work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascention, and then the pouring out of His Holy Spirit on those in Christ? Really? What's all this talk of making us a New Creation? The forgiveness of all sins? The free gift of grace by faith?

Quote:
But we know that's not the case when Yeshua's message was REPENT for the Kingdom of Heaven in near.

There are a thousand and one examples in the OT of what Is expected of us in order to repent. an essay on the different definitions for the word Repent isnt required when YHWH states word for word many times what is and has always been required.
Do you think repentance in the OT and the NT (after the work of the Cross) result in the same thing?

They don't.

Here's a very solid article showing the differences between OT believers and NT Christians:
Old Testament Believers and New Testament Christians - A comparison of the spiritual condition of the Old Testament believers and New Testament Christians
It's a good, meaty read . Enjoy!

Blessings,
-JGIG
Old 09-11-2011, 05:49 PM
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Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?




Hmmm.............


I keep hearing "I don't sin"....
Well then you're listening to voices in your head because it's not me !

Quote:

1 John 1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So did He cleanse you from ALL unrighteousness like He said He would or was God fibbing?

-JGIG
Old 09-11-2011, 05:51 PM
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Okay I might not be the smartest knife in the drawer, but I think you're agreeing with me; right?

And Tach...no offense please, but us 'senior citizens' wear bi-focals or, in my case, tri-focals and that tiny font and orange color are hard on the eyes....

C'mon ... give Tach a break with his choice of colors ... will ya?
Old 09-11-2011, 05:53 PM
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Actually, JGIG is completely consistent in her theology of "once saved, always saved". Her posts on sin actually are the end result of this theology and is entirely consistent which I applaud her for.

Now, of course, this brings in the issue of God CONDONING sinful behavior because it was already forgiven. Again, this brings up the debate of degrees of sin......as in murder is worse than making a lie....

...but these same folks don't buy the "degree" thing because it's too "Catholic" sounding (mortal/venial) and say all sin is sin just the same. Contradiction. Oh, and a "real" Christian will never do SERIOUS sin.....but I don't believe in degrees of sin?

But all this flows much better when you approach it from my perspective.....

...which is the "once saved, be careful" theology.

Turn or burn. And turning is more than a one-time thing if you're a human living on planet earth.
Where can we find the 'once saved, be careful' theology in the Scriptures? Likewise for those in Christ the 'turn or burn' theology?

Is there no security in the Hand of God? Is the salvation that He offers that fragile? Did He not know that He was coming to save imperfect, sinful human beings that would still sin while they remained in the flesh?

Do you really think that God did not take all of that into account - and came anyway die a tortuous death on the Cross in order to just give a fickle salvation?

Really?

-JGIG
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