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Old 09-10-2011, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tachmonite View Post

Terminology wise or more importantly Spiritually speaking,
no Standox, the HRE is the apostate that Paul spoke of.
Then once firmly in power she demanded death for traitors
to her "new" cause, like judaism did and islam still does.
Quote:
firmly in power she demanded death for traitors
to her "new" cause,
Quote:
like judaism did and islam still does
at least you got the "did" right. now you know full well your side of the fence is just as guilty and surly more quilty with numbers, we may have killed God but you guys have killed millions of Gods creators
Old 09-10-2011, 08:30 PM
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Ya know, this Covenent thing, it's a contract. you should read it really well before you accept it, this isn't one of those contracts you should let a Lawyer( or teacher) explain to you.
G-d made a contract with Israel, Yeshua extended this offer to everyone, its a newwww
amendment not a new contract. Show me where Yeshua anulled the first one. Show me where Yeshua didn't keep his own Law.

Shabbot Shalom everyone.
-rover
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JGIG
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Your link just throws a bunch of Scriptures out there with your commentary. Not once do you provide definitions for either the Hebrew or the Greek words used for repent in the Scriptures.

Can you? Have you ever actually ever looked them up and studied them?-JGIG
Yes I have. Have you?

Hebrew repent: shub to turn back; repent

1Ki. 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn [shub] from their sin, when thou afflictest them.

1 Ki. 8:47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, [shub] and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;

2 Chron. 6:26 When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn[shub] from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;

2 Chron.7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn [shub] from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Isa. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn [shub] from transgression in Jacob, saith YHVH.

Dan. 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before YHVH our God, that we might turn [shub] from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.


Greek repent metanoia to turn from one's sin; have a change of mind

Matt. 13:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Luke 3: 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And here's what happened to Esau when he didn't turn from or repent of his sin:

Heb. 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Singular1ty View Post
Ha, your probably a tough nut to crack, fortunately for me I'm not in the mood to scrape off all those caked up layers of indoctrination in you.

Good day sir.
Another one bites the dust. Next.
Old 09-10-2011, 09:36 PM
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Another one bites the dust. Next.
not for the faint of heart AJ, you gotta be tough in the head not the body
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Singular1ty View Post
I have yet to hear a Christian say "what we did was wrong, and I am sorry for it, but I am not those people and I never will be."

But instead you pass blame to someone else. How typical.
Are you not likewise passing judgment, by asking them to accept responsibility for the actions committed by those who are not associated with them?

Matthew 7:15-24...
"Watch our for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious as wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.' "


Even Jesus says there will be those who believe that their actions were done in the best interests of God, but in truth they have deluded themselves, for their evil actions testify that they are not of God.

"By their fruit you will recognize them". Would you consider these acts of atrocity good "fruit" or bad "fruit"? Of course you know they were bad. And what does Jesus say about those who produce bad fruit? They will be cut down and cast into the fire. They will present their case to Christ on the last day, disillusioned by their own evil intent, that they were doing the will of Christ, but their fruits (actions) prove they did indeed not know Him. So these atrocities you speak of were not committed by Christians, but rather, false Christians.

Claim "cop out" if you wish, but when was the last time you walked into a police station and said, "I'd like to turn myself in to accept punishment for any and all criminals incarcerated here, because I am indirectly responsible as a member of the society which prompted such illegal activities as they have committed"...?

Jesus Christ (though blameless) willingly took upon Himself, to suffer and die for the sins of the world, which lead to the redemption of the world.

When was the last time that have you willingly suffered for the crimes of another? More importantly, just imagine if someone wanted to punish you for crimes which others had committed hundreds of years ago; wouldn't you think that was unreasonable? Now keep this in mind when you review your earlier posts and you'll see that you have been just as unreasonable.

Atrocities are wrong, no matter who it is that has committed them. However, Christianity should be judged on the basis of what Jesus said and did, not based on the actions of people who merely claimed to be Christians.

In Christ,

-Tom
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:07 AM
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So if I'm understanding you correctly, you don't consider Catholicism to be Christian, nor Catholics to be Christians. But some might be.

If you don't believe Catholicism is Christian, what in your opinion is it? Jewish? Pagan? Muslim?
I think Roman Cathlolicism is Roman Catholicism. I think that more people are led into 'religion' by Catholicism than are led to the simplicity of the Gospel in Christ. There is a lot of 'Jesus plus' theology in Catholicism. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that there are Christians who love the Lord with all their hearts in Catholicism. I also know many eventually leave the Roman Catholic church because they feel required to be more loyal to a religious system than to the simplicity of the Gospel and simply abiding in the Vine.
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rover View Post
Ya know, this Covenent thing, it's a contract. you should read it really well before you accept it, this isn't one of those contracts you should let a Lawyer( or teacher) explain to you.
G-d made a contract with Israel, Yeshua extended this offer to everyone, its a newwww
amendment not a new contract. Show me where Yeshua anulled the first one. Show me where Yeshua didn't keep his own Law.

Shabbot Shalom everyone.
-rover
Romans 10:9-13
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
-JGIG
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rover View Post
Ya know, this Covenent thing, it's a contract. you should read it really well before you accept it, this isn't one of those contracts you should let a Lawyer( or teacher) explain to you.
G-d made a contract with Israel, Yeshua extended this offer to everyone, its a newwww
amendment not a new contract. Show me where Yeshua anulled the first one. Show me where Yeshua didn't keep his own Law. Shabbot Shalom everyone. -rover
It is easy to understand why a person stuck in moses rejects Christ.
Hebrews 8:6,7
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry,
inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,
which was established on better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless,
then no place would have been sought for a second.
The New Covenant written by the Holy Ghost on our hearts ain't left overs !!
Yahshua's blood atonement smashes the faulty legal system of works.
Yahweh tabernacling in the likeness of sinful flesh establishes new rules altogether.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.
Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

No, sorry...the New Covenant is not an amendment. It's a barn burner.
Nonetheless, believers are grafted into CHRIST and become "my people".

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,
says Yahweh: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts;
and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Colossians 1:26 -28
The mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations,
but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known
what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles:
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we preach,
warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,
that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by armourbearer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGIG


Yes I have. Have you?
You're kidding, right? Have you even read this thread? A lengthy study of the word repent in both the OT and the NT is included. I'll repost it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
temu, you're taking flesh and spirit concepts and mixing the two. Where in the passage that you quote does it say that Gentiles actually become Israel and are subject to Her laws? It doesn't. The passage simply states that, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Nigh to what? To the kingdom of God. What will inherit the kingdom of God? Flesh? Spirit?

Something to think about indeed.

Doze safely .





Answered here:
And more completely with the following post (I'll post it again here in case you missed it):
Originally Posted by JGIG
The question was asked,

. . . and temu likes to pester me about what repentance means, what defines sin, and if I repeatedly repent of my sins.

I've been crazy busy - sorry for the delay on answering this, but here ya go:

No - I do not ask for forgiveness. Before everybody starts freaking out, keep reading.

Do I apologize/regret/feel sorry for my sins?

Yes!

Do I humble myself before God and ask for His help and strength to not sin?

Yes!

Do I remember the sacrifice that was made for me and strive to honor that sacrifice and not to grieve God by my behavior?

Yes!

God says that my sins are already forgiven - put away as far as the East is from the West (Psalm 103:12) - and that He remembers them no more (Jeremiah 31:34, Hebrews 8:12).

Does He say just a few of my sins, or just a certain type of sin, or just the sins that were committed up until a certain time but that all sins after that time are not forgiven?

No!

The word repent as it is used in the New Testament has 2 related meanings - one having to do with a change of mind, the other having to do with regret:
metanoeō (repent)
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
and:
metamelomai (repent)
1) it is a care to one afterwards
a) it repents one, to repent one's self


One place I looked used the word 'regret' to help describe repent/metamelomai.
For those of you who like to look at the etymology of a word, New Testament usage of repent traces back thus:
metanoeō (repent)
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539):
Strong's G3326 - meta

1) with, after, behind

Strong's G3539 - noeō

1) to perceive with the mind, to understand, to have understanding
2) to think upon, heed, ponder, consider
and
metamelomai (repent)
From μετά (G3326) and the middle voice of μέλει (G3199)

Strong's G3326 - meta
1) with, after, behind
Strong's G3199 - melei
1) to care about


(Source)
Now those who adhere to a Law 'keeping' paradigm will tell us that 'repent' means to 'return', and in the context of their belief system, that means to return to Law. First, let me make clear, based on what we see above, that is NOT the meaning of the word repent used in the NT, or even, as we will see, always in the OT!

When looking at the word repent in the OT, repent has 3 different Hebrew words with lots of meanings, all which need to be evaluated by context. HRM teachers like to exclusively take just two Hebrew words 'return' (Strong's H8666 - tĕshuwbah) and 'repent' (Strong's H7725 - shuwb), both which have the same Hebrew Root word (Strong's H7725 - shuwb), and try to make them interchangeable with each other, regardless of context, and regardless of the clear Greek meanings for 'repent' as stated in the NT.

To repeat: Not only do they do so within the OT itself, but they take that Hebrew word for 'return', tĕshuwbah and its root 'shuwb' and replace the Greek words for repent, which are in line with the three other Hebrew words for 'repent', Strong's H5162 - nacham, Strong's H3820 - leb, and Strong's H3824 - lebab (from Strong's H3823 - labab). To be clear - they take a Hebrew word which does not mean 'repent' anywhere in the OT and apply it to where the word repent is used in the NT!

I know that word studies can be tedious, but stick with me and let's look at the Hebrew definitions of the five different words/roots used for repent, in order of appearance in the OT (you can look at a list of the occurrences of the English word 'repent' in the OT and their corresponding Hebrew counterparts and click on the Strong's number to see meanings matched with context HERE):

No. 1:
Strong's H5162 - nacham (repent), a verb, and a primitive root (which you can't just go switching 'round with other roots!)

1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
a) (Niphal)
1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself
b) (Piel) to comfort, console
c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
d) (Hithpael)
1) to be sorry, have compassion
2) to rue, repent of
3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
4) to ease oneself
No. 2 (This is one you'll see in HRM teachings a lot, you may also see it spelled as shoov or shoob:
Strong's H7725 - shuwb (repent), a verb, and also a primitive root
1) to return, turn back
a) (Qal)
1) to turn back, return
a) to turn back
b) to return, come or go back
c) to return unto, go back, come back
d) of dying
e) of human relations (fig)
f) of spiritual relations (fig)
1) to turn back (from God), apostatise
2) to turn away (of God)
3) to turn back (to God), repent
4) turn back (from evil)
g) of inanimate things
h) in repetition
b) (Polel)
1) to bring back
2) to restore, refresh, repair (fig)
3) to lead away (enticingly)
4) to show turning, apostatise
c) (Pual) restored (participle)
d) (Hiphil) to cause to return, bring back
1) to bring back, allow to return, put back, draw back, give back, restore, relinquish, give in payment
2) to bring back, refresh, restore
3) to bring back, report to, answer
4) to bring back, make requital, pay (as recompense)
5) to turn back or backward, repel, defeat, repulse, hinder, reject, refuse
6) to turn away (face), turn toward
7) to turn against
8) to bring back to mind
9) to show a turning away
10) to reverse, revoke
e) (Hophal) to be returned, be restored, be brought back
f) (Pulal) brought back
No. 3, with roots:
Strong's H3820 - leb (repent) , A form of לֵבָב (H3824)
1) inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
a) inner part, midst
1) midst (of things)
2) heart (of man)
3) soul, heart (of man)
4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6) conscience
7) heart (of moral character)
8) as seat of appetites
9) as seat of emotions and passions
10) as seat of courage
Strong's H3824 - lebab, From לָבַב (H3823), meanings identical to leb.


Strong's H3823 - labab, A primitive root
1) to ravish, become intelligent, get a mind
a) (Niphal) to take heart, become enheartened, become intelligent
b) (Piel) to ravish the heart, encourage, make heart beat faster
2) (Piel) to make cakes, bake cakes, cook bread

Now for the really interesting part of how those in Law 'keeping' sects turn the NT word 'repent' (with its clear meanings in the original Greek which are in agreement with the Hebrew meanings for repent in the context of the changing of the heart and mind - please go through and read these Scriptures in context to see how the Greek and Hebrew agree about what repentance is) into the word 'return'.

It is the classic progression of the redefinition of Biblical terms.

I’ve written this before but it’s worth repeating here - One of the things that is really important to be aware of regarding this and other heretical movements is that they engage in the re-definition of terms. Once that is accomplished, those re-defined terms become fields in which seeds of questionable doctrine can be cultivated.


At HRM websites and in HRM teaching materials a consistent technique is employed to bring the reader to where the writer wishes them to go, and I can’t stress this enough:


Faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are constructed, then those same faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are built upon as FACT to take the reader to the next doctrinal place the writer wishes the reader to go.

A popular HRM teacher referred to here at SB is a master at this technique, and does so regarding the word 'repent' HERE. He takes the Hebrew word tĕshuwbah, (you'll also see it spelled teshuvah in HRM teachings) which means 'return', 'expired', or 'answers', and is NEVER used as 'repent' in the OT, which has its primitive root, shuwb (shoov, shoob), and builds a whole doctrine about how repent in the NT means to return back to Law as the act of repentance!
Strong's H8666 - tĕshuwbah From שׁוּב (H7725) (primitive root shuwb, see above)
1) a recurrence, an answer, return
a) return
1) completion of a year, return of a year
b) at the return (construct)
c) answer, reply

Word studies really can be tedious, and eyes tend to glaze over when they're presented, but folks, getting a grasp on this is important, because it's really important to be clear about what particular words God ordained to communicate specific concepts.

To sum it up: The concept of repentance in light of the Gospel is a change of heart and mind, a realization of the truth of the Gospel and the putting of one's faith and trust in Christ. The Law has NOTHING to do with it, except to point out our sin and to point us to Christ. Good works, defined in the NT as works of faith, are the result of repentance, not the vehicle for it.

This short article lays it out nicely (from GotQuestions.org):
Question: "What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?"

Answer: Many understand the term repentance to mean “turning from sin.” This is not the biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.

What, then, is the connection between repentance and salvation? The Book of Acts seems to especially focus on repentance in regards to salvation (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). To repent, in relation to salvation, is to change your mind in regard to Jesus Christ. In Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2), he concludes with a call for the people to repent (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Peter is calling the people who rejected Jesus (Acts 2:36) to change their minds about Him, to recognize that He is indeed “Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36). Peter is calling the people to change their minds from rejection of Christ as the Messiah to faith in Him as both Messiah and Savior.

Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ.

It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is not the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Copyright Policy: While all of the material on the GotQuestions.org website is under copyright protection, the only purpose of our copyright is to make sure people copy it right. As long as you always clearly reference and/or link to www.gotquestions.org as the source of the material, you have our permission to copy, print, and distribute our material.)
May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

-JGIG
I added in a later post that the gotquestions article was a little 'Calviny', but got the basic point across.

Part of why you keep asking me the same question over and over about repentance is that you define repentance according to Brad Scott's definition, which, as I have proven above, is false.

And either you're getting senile or you're playing the 'she still hasn't answered the question' game to try to make me look bad when I have answered the question - several times. You just don't like the answer .

If we lived before the advent of the work of Christ, you'd have a point. But we don't. While you're resting your bones after a hard day of bulldozing, take some time to read this article:

Old Testament Believers and New Testament Christians

It's a meaty read. Enjoy!

-JGIG

Quote:
Hebrew repent: shub to turn back; repent
Could you cite your source for the definition, please?


Quote:
1Ki. 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn [shub] from their sin, when thou afflictest them.

1 Ki. 8:47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, [shub] and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;

2 Chron. 6:26 When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn[shub] from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;

2 Chron.7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn [shub] from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Isa. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn [shub] from transgression in Jacob, saith YHVH.

Dan. 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before YHVH our God, that we might turn [shub] from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.


There are two other Hebrew words for repent, AB. Do you know what they are? Do you know what their definitions are? Did you know that out of the 46 times in the OT that the word repent is used that the root shuwb is only used 4 times, while the other two Hebrew words (which line up with the Greek word definitions for repent ) are used for the other 42 times? Here's a link to the list - take a look for yourself, and the context in which Strong's H7725 - shuwb: http://www.blueletterbible.org/searc...a=repent&t=KJV

Quote:
Greek repent metanoia to turn from one's sin; have a change of mind
Again, please cite your source for that definition.

The two Greek words that turn up in the NT for repent are
Strong's G3340 - metanoeō
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
And
Strong's G3338 - metamelomai
1) it is a care to one afterwards
a) it repents one, to repent one's self
And
Strong's G3341 - metanoia
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
Quote:
Matt. 13:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


???

Matthew 13:8 says this: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Quote:
Luke 3: 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Quote:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And here's what happened to Esau when he didn't turn from or repent of his sin:

Heb. 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
You're taking a Hebrew root word and applying its meaning to Greek words with meanings of their own. You cannot do that. The Author of the Scriptures allowed specific words to be used at specific times in specific places for specific reasons. To switch the Hebrew (a root word, no less, and rarely used, and not meaning the same as the other Hebrew words for repent) and put it in place of the Greek is a linguistic no-no. Not one Greek word for repent/repentance has 'turn' or 'turn back' as one of its definitions.

It is a change of heart and mind that is the act of repentance. When one repents of self and realizes their state in their sins, realizes Who Jesus is and His solution to their state, and then they put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ - It is then that they turn from their sin! The sinner is unable to be righteous (turn from sin and walk in righteousness). It is only in Christ and the work of His Holy Spirit in us that righteousness is manifest!
2 Corinthians 5:14-21
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
-JGIG
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:10 AM
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The nit picking about what repent means seems so silly to me. It reminds me of President Clinton, trying to figure out what "it" means.

Repent is not something that is difficult to figure out. If someone has a problem with the word "repent", it makes me think that they do not have much of a grasp on word comprehension or they just don't want to do it.

Without even doing a lot of long research, (in the English) language repent means to to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2
a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind

: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2
: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for


That is in the Merriam Webster dictionary.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/repent

1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/repent

In easier terms repenting means that you realize that you did wrong. You regret doing wrong and you try to change for the better.

It isn't rocket science.
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
The nit picking about what repent means seems so silly to me. It reminds me of President Clinton, trying to figure out what "it" means.

Repent is not something that is difficult to figure out. If someone has a problem with the word "repent", it makes me think that they do not have much of a grasp on word comprehension or they just don't want to do it.

Without even doing a lot of long research, (in the English) language repent means to to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2
a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind

: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2
: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for


That is in the Merriam Webster dictionary.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/repent

1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/repent

In easier terms repenting means that you realize that you did wrong. You regret doing wrong and you try to change for the better.

It isn't rocket science.
I so happy! We agree on something! Yay!

Well, except Clinton's deal was with the word 'is', not 'it' . Was so fun to watch him squirm that day . Not meaning to nit pick, really I'm not.

-JGIG
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Old 09-11-2011, 07:21 AM
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WWJD?

Dunno maybe do what he always did, get to the point (even if in parables), not split hairs...the point, no the REAL point.

What is the REAL point of Jesus?

I have enough trouble staying focused on Him, but hair splitting takes me off on tangents

WWJD?

Not sure he'd become a catholic, pretty sure he was Jewish and observed the Jewish Sabbath...then again He healed some 7 times on the Sabbath so perhaps the Sabbath is something that should set us apart but bring us together, not bring us together to set upon one another
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:48 AM
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Ya know, this Covenent thing, it's a contract. you should read it really well before you accept it, this isn't one of those contracts you should let a Lawyer( or teacher) explain to you.
G-d made a contract with Israel, Yeshua extended this offer to everyone, its a newwww
amendment not a new contract. Show me where Yeshua anulled the first one. Show me where Yeshua didn't keep his own Law.

Shabbot Shalom everyone.
-rover
Here ya go my friend:

Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

2 Corinthians 3:6, "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Romans 7:6, "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Hebrews 7:12, "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

Luke 22:20, "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

Hebrews 8:6, "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

No mention of "an altered covenant" but lots of talk of a "new covenant."

The first contract (covenant) was broken. It was a conditional contract and the Israelites didn't keep up their end of the bargain. The contract was made null and void as a result of the misconduct and misapplication on the part of the Israelites.

There's lots more if you need to see more. Thanks for your participation. Blessings.
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rover View Post
Ya know, this Covenent thing, it's a contract. you should read it really well before you accept it, this isn't one of those contracts you should let a Lawyer( or teacher) explain to you.
G-d made a contract with Israel, Yeshua extended this offer to everyone, its a newwww
amendment not a new contract. Show me where Yeshua anulled the first one. Show me where Yeshua didn't keep his own Law.

Shabbot Shalom everyone.
-rover
And of course the fulfillment of the covenant is still future...time to get a "leg-up" on it now! Torah to be written on the hearts of everyone, from the least to the greatest...and there will be no more need to teach anyone about it!

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my TORAH in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the TORAH shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.



Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the TORAH, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Old 09-11-2011, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Vectorwoman View Post
The nit picking about what repent means seems so silly to me. It reminds me of President Clinton, trying to figure out what "it" means.

Repent is not something that is difficult to figure out. If someone has a problem with the word "repent", it makes me think that they do not have much of a grasp on word comprehension or they just don't want to do it.

Without even doing a lot of long research, (in the English) language repent means to to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2
a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind

: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2
: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for


That is in the Merriam Webster dictionary.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/repent

1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/repent

In easier terms repenting means that you realize that you did wrong. You regret doing wrong and you try to change for the better.

It isn't rocket science.
Agreed, but the 'argument' here is this. Is repenting a ONE time deal. Is it something you do ONLY once at your 'conversion' or is it something one does often. As often as one sins?

And as a side note, for I'm not sure this has been adressed? When we sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we first ask for forgivness, and turn from this action; repent of it.

Why do we turn/repent? Obviously because we want to try to not do that same sin again. That to me is the importance of repentence.

When I sin I say this pray, "Father, I humbly beg Your forgiveness for _______, and I repent of it and I turn from that sin."

YMMV
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:26 AM
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Agreed, but the 'argument' here is this. Is repenting a ONE time deal. Is it something you do ONLY once at your 'conversion' or is it something one does often. As often as one sins?

And as a side note, for I'm not sure this has been adressed? When we sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we first ask for forgivness, and turn from this action; repent of it.

Why do we turn/repent? Obviously because we want to try to not do that same sin again. That to me is the importance of repentence.

When I sin I say this pray, "Father, I humbly beg Your forgiveness for _______, and I repent of it and I turn from that sin."

YMMV
Bbbbbbtttttt...that would involve recognition of how Scripture defines sin. Another touchy subject with JGIG's "one time repentance" scenario.

Odd...what do folks actually think they repented from? Sin...transgression of His commands...only to turn and break the same commands we repented from???

You can't make this stuff up!

Old 09-11-2011, 10:51 AM
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I think Roman Cathlolicism is Roman Catholicism. I think that more people are led into 'religion' by Catholicism than are led to the simplicity of the Gospel in Christ. There is a lot of 'Jesus plus' theology in Catholicism. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that there are Christians who love the Lord with all their hearts in Catholicism. I also know many eventually leave the Roman Catholic church because they feel required to be more loyal to a religious system than to the simplicity of the Gospel and simply abiding in the Vine.
So that's a no, in your opinion Catholicism is not Christian. Boy, I had you all wrong. I disagree with a lot of your interpretations, but I thought you were smarter than this.

By the way, I'm not sure why you think that religion is a dirty word and you pretend that you are not in one. If you claim to be a Christian, you are in a religion. Anyone who believes in God is.

religion [ri-lij-uhn]

re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn]

noun

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when
considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of
religions.

4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
Old 09-11-2011, 10:55 AM
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Bbbbbbtttttt...that would involve recognition of how Scripture defines sin. Another touchy subject with JGIG's "one time repentance" scenario.

Odd...what do folks actually think they repented from? Sin...transgression of His commands...only to turn and break the same commands we repented from???

You can't make this stuff up!

For sure...and the thing that "I" don't get is this. When I sin I feel AWFUL!! I feel ashamed of myself for being so STUPID. So how do I 'fix' this?

By pretending it didn't happen? By relying on the fact I already repented 31 years ago? By believing it's already 'forgiven' by Messiah's death?

NO!! I fall on my face and ask forgiveness from the One who loved me enough to come in the flesh and die for sin!!

He is my Father. I love Him and I have sinned against HIM, by breaking one of His 'rules'.

I am SORRY and I beg His forgiveness and repent with the idea it will HELP me to not do that same sin again.

As VW said, "It's not rocket science."
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:15 AM
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Agreed, but the 'argument' here is this. Is repenting a ONE time deal. Is it something you do ONLY once at your 'conversion' or is it something one does often. As often as one sins?

And as a side note, for I'm not sure this has been adressed? When we sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we first ask for forgivness, and turn from this action; repent of it.

Why do we turn/repent? Obviously because we want to try to not do that same sin again. That to me is the importance of repentence.

When I sin I say this pray, "Father, I humbly beg Your forgiveness for _______, and I repent of it and I turn from that sin."

YMMV
How could repenting be a one time deal, if we continue to commit sin?

Example: If we are a child, and our parents give us a set of rules. We break one rule. Do we say, "Mom I am sorry for breaking that rule and I am sorry for all the times that I will break your rules for now on." LOL Now does that make any sense?

In my personal experience, the closer I get to God, the more I feel convicted of my sins daily. I thus repent daily.

As everyone, I am not perfect and I am a work in progress. I do not try to stay stagnant and stay in one place. I try to move forward, learn from my mistakes and improve.

I thank Yahweh all the times for having grace in me that he gives me leg room to make mistakes and to improve. Yahweh does not want any of us to parish, spiritually. That is why He gives us grace. Do we kick a baby who is stumbling while learning to walk? No, do we just let the child grow up only knowing how to crawl? No

We don't even have to teach a child to walk. They grow and learn their whole lives.

Do we stop growing and learning when we are adults? Spiritually, some do. Grace is not an excuse to quit growing. It is a gift to help us grow.
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