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Old 08-02-2011, 01:26 AM
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ChapNelson ChapNelson is offline
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Originally Posted by FarmerJohn View Post
might want to look into the cz 527 carbine

cz makes some real quality rifles that are wicked accurate and reasonably priced you can pick this up new for about $600
comes in either 5.56 or 7.62x39 mag fed bolt action
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/

Its just so pretty ... sigh. There was a time in our history when men had one rifle, and they wanted it pretty.

It's a 1in12 twist though, which is my only complaint. I've heard of folks rebarreling with a 1in9 for the nice heavy grain bullets.
Old 08-02-2011, 01:29 AM
Herd Sniper Herd Sniper is offline
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Here's a couple of other options for you to consider...

#1. You could also get an AK type rifle for about half the cost of an AR. The AKs come in 7.62 X 39, .223/5.56 and 5.45 X 39. The AK type rifles are not mechanically complex. In some countries, when they issue an AK they give the user a cartoon type book with no written words in them. They are simple to use and utterly reliable. If you can handle a computer, you can easily handle an AK. Get one that feels right to you and then, later on, mount a simple 4 or 6 power scope on it to enhance your shooting ability, not turn it into a sniper rifle.

2. If you utterly have your heart set on a bolt action rifle, you could always go with a Savage rifle in .243 caliber. The bullet weighs in with a 100 or so grains behind it and it is a slightly bigger diameter bullet. These rifles and this caliber are great for dropping deer and if it will drop a deer, it'll probably work well for personal defense too. The cost difference between .223 and .243 ammo shouldn't really be all that different. If you reload, you should be able to bring down the cost per round when compared to new ammo so you might be able to actually get your .243 reloads down to under new ammo costs for the .223 ammo. Once again, if you get a rifle plan to eventually mount a scope on it.
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Old 08-02-2011, 01:40 AM
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For a bolt gun, personally I would get a .308, semi I might consider the .223. The AR rifles really are not that complicated and really don't break down as often as you would think.

I have considered what your referring to for varmint hunting, but to effectively use it against a human threat, you will need some pretty exhausting training that with the issues you have listed are far out of your realm of possibility.

If its what you want then by all means get it, but you realistically know your max is 200yds, (800-900yds with a .308) your rate of fire will be slow, you will have to practice sniper style techniques to keep yourself concealed and put as many rounds effectively on target very rapidly. (and disguise your muzzle flash from the enemy to avoid detection).

If your wiling to commit then my hats off to you. Get started now, and train train train. Personally, not the route or risk I would take with my life or may family.

Best wishes to you my friend.
Old 08-02-2011, 06:56 AM
Semper_Gumby Semper_Gumby is offline
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Mini 14, hands down. Based on one of the most robust, battle proven actions of all time. .223/5.56 is deadly in proficient hands (IE get out and SHOOT it! Get COMFORTABLE with your rifle!).
Old 08-02-2011, 09:10 AM
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#1 rule of gunfighting is to have a gun

if it is all you can afford it's better than a rock, sharp stick or harsh language

also if you get an AR down the road you've got same - same ammo - assuming some barrel twist issues here
Old 08-02-2011, 01:23 PM
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Thoughts would be on 243 or larger in a REM 740, 742 or 7400 a semi auto
that you can get a 10 round mag for.......
Most of these rifle have good groups and for cost have seen them $200.00 up. As many have stated the 223 is not on the top of defense weapon yet
the 60gr nos, 64gr Win and 65gr bullets do offer a good hunting round with in 100 yards at 1000 fps. You can shoot past that and out to 600yds with a heavier bullet 69-75 gr bullets.....
Just my .02
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:59 PM
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Try looking at this from the scenario first and then work backwards.

1) Someone that is obviously hostile and 25 yards away is charging towards you after already killing someone else. In this case you want to be able to put the person down after the first connection, not the 2nd or 3rd.

2) A bear comes out of the woods near you. Same as #1.

3) You want to shoot for fun. It does not matter what you are using.

The reason to carry a lot of .223 ammo is that you will need more than 1 shot on life threatening targets unless your shot placement is near perfect. In these cases you will wish you had gotten a semi auto rifle and not a bolt gun of any kind.

If you have time to setup and you know for a fact that you need to engage a target that is either unaware or semi-aware of you then bolt guns are fine. Hell, every game animal on the planet will tell you that.

If you are thinking of defense (defense being where equal aggression has already been presented to you) then you need to change your mindset slightly.

A .30-30 lever gun will out shoot your normal bolt gun in .223 every day at conflict ranges. The .30-30 is not seen as a power house by any stretch however it is a very good platform to work with.

Carrying 1,000 rounds should not be your goal. Carrying 50 rounds that will definitively end a threat should be your goal since 'threats' don't happen all the time but when they do you want to end them.
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:28 PM
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Default Get training.

Get some formal training in using a rifle, both from a marksmanship perspective and from a defensive perspective.

Appleseed is a fun, inexpensive marksmanship & heritage training program. You'll have to shop around on defensive rifle - but they range from local classes to nationally-known teachers like Pat Rogers and Chris Costa.

The fundamentals you'll learn apply regardless of the platform you apply them to.

Just because the SHTF doesn't mean you've got a hunting license to shoot people. As such, the 5.56/.223 should serve you well for close-quarters defensive use.

John
Old 08-03-2011, 08:00 PM
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Just use what ever rifle you have or can afford. And practice with it as much as you can.
Just because shtf does not mean you have to stand infront of the fan.
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borrowed time View Post
i am on a serious budget and would most likely have to sell a couple of guns to get this (ones im not needing). My friend has a Savage bolt action in .223 that i would also like to get and it strikes me as a great compromise for a main SHTF rifle. it is accurate out to my farthest range, which is about 150 - 200 yards. the ammo is light and common and cheap as well as accurate. i know something in a .30 cal would pack more of a serious punch, but due to health problems with knees and back i couldnt pack as much as with the .223.

i know that with an AR you can put alot of rounds out fast, but you also eat up ammo faster. would a bolt action in .223 be enough to keep me & my family safe if i train to do my part? i will NOT be planning to get into huge fire-fights, and will ghost around as much as possible. i just want the ability to take someone out or seriously discourage them from coming closer. thank you very much. ----Eric
Greetings all,

If you're absolutely set on .223, I would recommend an AR rifle. They're lightweight, accurate, and function nearly flawlessly. You have to keep them clean (as with any firearm), but more so than a bolt action rifle. The nice thing about AR platform is that you can buy other complete upper receivers, and in seconds (literally) switch them out to a completely different caliber; 7.62x39, 9mm, 50 Beowulf, etc. The lower receiver/trigger group is exactly the same, just swap out the uppers and of course, have the proper magazine.

AR rifles aren't cheap though. I think you can still get one of the Bushmaster models for around $800. Not to mention the vast selection of add-ons, parts, modifications, etc.

I own a Mini-14 as well, and they're nearly indestructible, but I prefer the AR for ergonomics and balance. My older model cost me around $400 new. The prices have gone through the roof!

You may also want to take a look at the AK rifles in 7.62x39. The Romanian WASR AK rifles are around $400 new. You have to watch what you're buying (some of them are less than desirable), but they're a very good rifle.

Check gunbroker.com (the eBay of guns) to see what's available and what you should expect to spend.
Old 08-04-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChapNelson View Post
Its just so pretty ... sigh. There was a time in our history when men had one rifle, and they wanted it pretty.

It's a 1in12 twist though, which is my only complaint. I've heard of folks rebarreling with a 1in9 for the nice heavy grain bullets.
you know the older i get the more i find i would rather have a few exquisit rifles than a bunch of unpersonal plastic stocked rifles

i want to learn to make my own wooden stocks that way soon as i can get a cherry stump out of the ground ima try making a burl cherry stock for my marlin336
Old 08-04-2011, 11:12 PM
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We are a AR country for a reason.
Old 08-04-2011, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerJohn View Post
might want to look into the cz 527 carbine

cz makes some real quality rifles that are wicked accurate and reasonably priced you can pick this up new for about $600
comes in either 5.56 or 7.62x39 mag fed bolt action
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/

That exact model in 5.56 is on my list for a truck gun
Old 08-04-2011, 11:39 PM
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I use an AR Carbine for my main weapon, simply because the distances I would be shooting in are limited to cqb range out to 100 yds max (densely forested area).

I've used 5.56 on deer, hogs and people (Kuwait/Afghanistan/Iraq), it has worked in every situation that I've been in that required a gun as the solution.

The KelTec Su-16 is a good alternative to the AR, but as others mentioned there are some .223 bolt guns that are worthy of consideration as well.

5.56 with the right bullet weight and barrel twist is pretty versatile and deadly.

I don't feel undergunned at all with it.
Old 08-04-2011, 11:45 PM
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Contrary to what everyone tells you, get what your comfortable with and can shoot well, buying something you cannot shoot well or your uncomfortable with will only get you killed. However if you can a semiauto would be a better option than a bolt action, as it has been said in earlier posts the mini 14, saiga, or even a keltec su-16 would be better than the savage. Good luck on your pursuit.
Old 08-06-2011, 01:21 AM
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Post Gets it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenfeathers View Post
Everybody thinks an AR 223 is the Holy Grail of rifle's will it's not, it's a overblown 22.

Get you a rifle that shoots 308 (7.62x51) it has long range great stopping power ammo is cheaper. Ammo is not that heavy.
It's the prefered sniper round in Iraq & afganistan

Jst my experiance 65' 67'
Thank G-D,
Somebody gets it,
You want need as much ammo to get the job done if you carry the right gun.
The weapons I have for post/shtf are all 30cal or better. I have weapons that are for 40 yds, or less ideally 12ga loaded with Tactical low recoil 00 buckshot. 2 Carbines 9mm and M1 30cal.for the 40to 100-150yd. a M1-Ga-rand for the 150-600 yd. and a .303 British enfeild same range then I have a 8mm Turkish Mauser that goes out at 1000+ yards. If you are limited in funds or as the op of this thread has physical conditions, get a weapon that allows you to take the threat out as quickly and as far away from you as possible.
Old 08-06-2011, 03:49 AM
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Have a NEF single shot 223 scope 500 yds Toss in 308, 12ga, etc uppers and good combo
Old 08-06-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeds View Post
Thank G-D,
Somebody gets it,
You want need as much ammo to get the job done if you carry the right gun.
The weapons I have for post/shtf are all 30cal or better. I have weapons that are for 40 yds, or less ideally 12ga loaded with Tactical low recoil 00 buckshot. 2 Carbines 9mm and M1 30cal.for the 40to 100-150yd. a M1-Ga-rand for the 150-600 yd. and a .303 British enfeild same range then I have a 8mm Turkish Mauser that goes out at 1000+ yards. If you are limited in funds or as the op of this thread has physical conditions, get a weapon that allows you to take the threat out as quickly and as far away from you as possible.
And................Your both wrong You need to sell a couple of your pistol ammo carbines, turkish mauser, british enfield, m-1, and whatever other goofy crap you have laying around and buy yourself a clue. Or as most people who do know something call it.........a AR.
Old 08-06-2011, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeds View Post
Thank G-D,
Somebody gets it,
You want need as much ammo to get the job done if you carry the right gun.
The weapons I have for post/shtf are all 30cal or better. I have weapons that are for 40 yds, or less ideally 12ga loaded with Tactical low recoil 00 buckshot. 2 Carbines 9mm and M1 30cal.for the 40to 100-150yd. a M1-Ga-rand for the 150-600 yd. and a .303 British enfeild same range then I have a 8mm Turkish Mauser that goes out at 1000+ yards. If you are limited in funds or as the op of this thread has physical conditions, get a weapon that allows you to take the threat out as quickly and as far away from you as possible.
Why do I need a .30 caliber weapon when my longest shot here will be 75-100 yds max? I have a 30.06 bolt gun, it collects dust mostly no reason to take it out.

I'm certainly not planning on using a 30 cal rifle in the house, too long and too much penetration, 5.56 or my 12 ga. fit the bill.

The iraqi insurgents and taliban that I shot were in close quarters, sometimes across the room look into their eyes distances. Again no need for a .30 cal+ weapon. 9mm and 5.56 did the job, I survived and made it home in mostly one piece.

I am looking for compact, lightweight, higher ammo capacity not nostalgia, or unrealistic shot distances.

If I lived in a more open area and not a heavily forested one, the I would have a Garand hands down.

Always use the right tool for your situation., in the house or at extreme close range I am going with my knife or pistol primarily.
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:21 AM
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Default Luck

Good luck to both you guys,
I want the 30 cal for there proven knock down.Nostalgic, maybe, old technology maybe.as for the .30cal/9mm being pistol powered yeah maybe being fired from a rifle/carbine length barrel increase velocity and power. As for your high capacity and rates of fire. I have high capacity and a decent rate for semi-auto weapon. Also, I have no intentions of having to fight the hostile/raiders/boogie men in my living room. As for the long distance shooting, I do not want to have to be defending my loved ones from the windows of the house.If the raiders/zombies get their hands of the same weapon types as you,Then you will need to let them get into range,which means you will having incoming rounds,Rounds coming into where your loved ones are.NOT GOOD.You both sited combat service experience, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. However, that being said, keep in mind that your wife,kids,mom,dad,brothers and sisters weren't in immediate danger/harms way.Think about like this, for over 200 years of history and war this nation had always used 30+ caliber weapons most above 40 and many above 50 in caliber. Why is that when we went to using 5.56(.223) weapon systems that we had to change the way we shot are enemies on the field of battle.Now 3 round tactical burst is in major use, Needing to get a lot of rounds out quickly in order to do the job may work on a modern battle field, I just don't want my front yard to be that field. That is why I have some of those long range heavier weapons and ammo.I don't want my family/friends being bullet sponges unnecessarily. Good Luck guys.
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