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three edged blades

63K views 32 replies 16 participants last post by  SeekHer 
#1 ·
Saw an episode of Pawn Stars last night.

Some guy was trying to sell a WWI knife that had a three edged blade.

Expert said the reason you don't see these anymore is that the Geneva Convention outlawed knives with more than two edges because the wounds created couldn't be stitched up.

Ever heard of that before?
 
#7 ·
imagine a bayonet on a civil war musket they were triangular because the body wont heal a triangular wound as easily and i have read the geneva and hauge conventions regs ddnt see anything on blade shape
heres a link to the laws of land warfare http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~nstanton/FM27-10.htm

and heres the chapter on forbidden methods of waging war
http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~nstanton/Ch2.htm#s3
a picture of the knife would be nice sounds like a ww1 trench knife tho
is this it?
 
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#9 ·
What weapons cause "unnecessary injury" can only be determined in light of the practice of States in refraining from the use of a given weapon because it is believed to have that effect. The prohibition certainly does not extend to the use of explosives contained in artillery projectiles, mines, rockets, or hand grenades. Usage has, however, established the illegality of the use of lances with barbed heads, irregular-shaped bullets, and projectiles filled with glass, the use of any substance on bullets that would tend unnecessarily to inflame a wound inflicted by them, and the scoring of the surface or the filing off of the ends of the hard cases of bullets.

as you can see its not banned
 
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#13 ·
it doesnt ban knives just any thing designed to creat un nessesary suffering like a glass bullet you wouldnt be able to find the shards thus extra un nessesary pain as it keeps cutting you for years after the conflict is an example
 
#14 ·
You're forgetting one thing--a triangular blade is far harder to make and for the infantryman to maintain in the field...Round is easiest, flat is easier, triangular is a pain in the arse...Look at some of the SMLE WW1 bayonets that were just a pointy round thing sticking out from under the barrel because they were cheap and quick to produce...

They went away from triangular bayonets for a simple reason, as guns got shorter--compared to a Brown Bess Musket--bayonets had to get longer to keep the same length which was to act as a pike in a square to fend off mounted attacks...The longer triangular blades were found to be much weaker--In the hot desert sun they would actually droop (The term a limp **** is attributed to this phenomenon) --and bent very easily when stabbed into somebody or thing unless they were made super thick so conventional style blades were used instead as they wouldn't bend or droop...

It also meant that the MOD didn't have to issue a knife as well as a bayonet so it was done also as a cost cutting measure...triangular blades could only stab but a regular blade could slice and butter bread and cut your food so one less utensil to issue...

You know those grooves on the sides of bayonets, they're called blood grooves and they were put there to help prevent the bayonet from sticking in the body--they allowed blood and more importantly air to escape so a vacuum wouldn't form although they did work well they didn't completely eradicate the problem of stuck bayonets and why we were taught to stab and twist and withdraw...The triangular blades were notorious for sticking and twisting didn't help any...Lots of stories where guys would have to stand on the body and pull the bayonet out or with magazine rifles they would shoot a bullet into the body causing the vacuum to release the blade...

The first bayonets were flat, basically a big assed knife with a tapered handle that fit into the barrel of the gun --called plug bayonets and had a habit of coming out when stabbed into someone so soldiers tied them to their firelocks and then the socket bayonet came about that slipped onto the end of the barrel and was held buy a twisted channel and a thick stub...

The reason you won't find bayonets on the Hague Convention is because there aren't any listed there...EXCEPT that during WW1 if you were caught with a modified bayonet, I.E. sawing the back into a large gapped saw blade primarily; your chances of "Quarter or Kammerad" were at best a snowball's chance in Hell...You would be usually stabbed, repeatedly, with your own bayonet and left to suffer until you died...That was just something that both sides agreed upon not by any legal paper telling them they can't which the Geneva Convention most surely does but by consensus...

As to the brass knuckle knife I was always led to believe that there was a 1934 US Federal Law prohibiting them but that only covers interstate transport/sale of switchblades but there are numerous state, county and municipal laws that prevent you from carrying brass knuckles with or without a blade attached and some places even the ownership of either is "verboten!"
 
#15 ·
the "blood groove" is called a fuller and its to strenghten the blade if you think im full of **** google knife fuller or wikipedia it

What is a Blood Groove For?
This question comes up every 8 months or so. The blood groove on a knife probably is derived from the channel present on swords, where it is called a "fuller". There are some persistent myths floating around about the function of blood grooves, from "releases the vacuum when the knife is thrust into a person" to "no functional use, purely decorative". Let's talk about these wrong answers first, before we talk about the right answers.


Wrong Answer #1: Releasing the Body Suction

Basically, this theory postulates that the blood groove is present to facilitate withdrawing the knife from a person/animal. In this scenario, it is said that the animal's muscles contract around the knife blade, and that this causes a vacuum, which makes the knife difficult to withdraw. But on a knife with a blood groove, blood runs through the blood groove and breaks the suction, so the knife can be withdrawn with less difficulty.

One problem is that there's no evidence that this suction ever really happens. Also, over and over again people report that there is no difference whatsoever in the difficulty of withdrawing a knife with a blood groove vs. one without. This is one theory that has been tested and found wanting.

Yes, I realize you may have heard this myth from your deadly knife instructor, or read it in a book somewhere. But the experts agree that it is false. If your knife can cut its way in, it can just as easily cut its way out, with or without a blood groove.

And with that, I am going to change terminology from "blood groove" to "fuller", since we all now know the so-called "blood groove" is not playing a blood-channeling function.

Wrong Answer #2: Purely Decorative

There is a grain of truth to this one. Although a fuller does play a functional role, on a short knife the effect might be so small as to be insignificant. Many believe the fuller plays a strictly decorative role on knives or swords under 2 feet long. As the knife or sword gets bigger, the fuller plays an increasingly important role. On smaller knives, it is indeed probably just decorative.

Right Answers:

Okay, so what substantive role does the blood groove/fuller play? The bottom line is, it does two things:

1. It stiffens the blade 2. It lightens the blade

That first statment has been the subject of some controversy, with some people sending me equations purporting to show that the removal of material cannot make the blade stiffer. I will table for now the question of "does the blade get stiffer, in some absolute sense, due to the fuller?" Rather, I'll weaken the claim to say that the blade *feels* stiffer to the user who is waving it around -- because it's stiffer for its weight.

I'll reproduce a post by Jim Hrisoulas which lays things out clearly (re-printed with permission):

When you fuller a blade you do several things:

1: You lighten it by using less material, as the act of forging in the fuller actually widens the blade, so you use less material than you would if you forged an unfullered blade. (In stock removal the blade would also be lighter, as you would be removing the material instead of leaving it there).

2: You stiffen the blade. In an unfullered blade, you only have a "single" center spine. This is especially true in terms of the flattened diamond cross section common to most unfullered double- edged blades. This cross section would be rather "whippy" on a blade that is close to three feet long. Fullering produces two "spines" on the blade, one on each side of the fuller where the edge bevels come in contact with the fuller. This stiffens the blade, and the difference between a non-fullered blade and a fullered one is quite remarkable.

Fullers on knives do the same thing, although on a smaller blade the effects are not as easily seen or felt. Actually looking at fullers from an engineering point of view they really are a sophisticated forging technique, and it was the fullered swordblade that pointed the way to modern "I" beam construction.

When combined with proper distal tapers, proper heat treating and tempering, a fullered blade will, without a doubt, be anywhere from 20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of strength or blade integrity.

Fullers were not "blood grooves" or there to "break the suction" or for some other grisly purpose. They served a very important structural function. That's all. I have spent the last 27 years studying this and I can prove it beyond any doubt...

Source: rec.knives Newsgroup May 1998
 
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#17 ·
Call it a fuller or indents or channels or flukes or dimples or bohi (Japanese) or what it really is a cannelure...A central fuller is different then the fuller I was referring to…A fuller is usually a groove(s) or risers a raised section(s) down the centre of the blade, for strength and lightness…Used to strengthen the blade, to stiffen the blade and to lighten the blade sure, absolutely, no question whatsoever, 100% in agreement...I’m sorry in calling it a blood groove (but it was all that came to mind when I wrote it) and perpetuating the myth…Which myth? The blood channel or the blade getting stuck? The first I have no knowledge of and the latter, although not first hand, the next best thing to it, forty uncles and great uncles, cousins and nephews I think…

As to the vacuum effect, unfortunately I've never experienced it first hand as I've never had to bayonet anyone, stab them with a knife yes, bayonet on the end of a rifle, no! Some of my relatives, on the other hand have! We have had members serving the British crown, taken the King’s shilling, from Redcoats in the F&I War and as Green and Redcoats in the Rev War (we were kicked out of the Colonies to Upper Canada for being Royalists), 1812-14, Crimea, India, Zululand, Boer 1 & 2, WW1, WW2 and lastly Korea and almost all did experience vacuum sucking the blade...We have this from their memoirs (those that could write) passed down through the centuries (and now located in the Museums in Ottawa, Chicago, Smithsonian, Manitoba and in unit museum collections in Great Britain) and of course word of mouth from surviving family members and their (now mostly late) friends...Most of the WW1 guys died when I was young but a good number lasted into my teens (1960s & 70s) and we'd all listen to their stories at family functions--especially Remembrance Day or whatever you call it, Nov. 11th...

The opening to allow air to escape, erroneously, but commonly, called a blood groove is that small indentation (a fuller actually) just below the spine of the blade, usually a forte (strong section) et pre le (and before the) ricasso, and seen best on the likes of USMC Fighting Knives by Ka-Bar or the Marble’s Camp Blade series…The theory behind it’s usage and development is told by too many service men/instructors, martial artists, knife makers et al over the years from the time of Frederick the Great to the present day so I'll have to take then at their word...

They did lots of bayonet work in the trenches in WW1…We were told that this vacuum phenomenon was created mostly when the bayonet (or knife) was rammed with great force in the Hun’s body, say after seeing the SOB kill a friend of yours and if you didn’t twist the blade when ramming it, it would get stuck and be hard to very hard to extract…Sometimes they had to shoot a round into the body to break the “air pocket” so it would release…I’ve read and heard of other incidents where the blade was in the stomach and the Tommy would be jumping up and down on the dead (sometimes) soldier’s stomach, yanking at the rifle and screaming expletives while trying to free it…Had it been into the rib cage and got stuck between the ribs or pushed hard into a bone that’s a different matter altogether and there is no saying that the blade didn’t get stuck in the spinal column when rammed home…

The relaters of these incidents, and many, many more, were my family and of course the NCOs when I was in the service who have also then perpetuate this "myth" of vacuum under a stab and the reason for the twist before removal and the erroneous purpose of the flukes...If you want to call my great uncle, a retired RSM--Regimental Sergeant Major--a liar for telling me the vacuum/groove theory go ahead cause I sure the Hell won't and he's ninety seven (Tues just past) and he got it not from hand me down stories from his ancestors (which they probably did) but the British Army Training Manual, c.1943 and having his blade stick in I think three or four Japanese during WW2 before and after he was captured and sent to a work camp alà “Bridge on the River Kwai”...

Of course the bayonets (originally baïonnette, from Bayonne, France) were derived from swords as most big knives did from medieval to Renaissance times -- then rapiers became more prominent and the triangular blade was in its heyday...How many big knives derived from cut back swords have you ever seen in major European Arms or Castle Museums, me personally, a few hundred, as they would not throw away a very expensive and still usable, albeit shorter, implement that with a bit of grinding/shaping is a new knife with a sword’s hilt...

The manual of arms for bayonet fighting, blade detached, is almost like a sword fighting manual as you do have a short sword (16” to 24”) there so the moves should be appropriate…With bayonet attached there is hardly any difference from the 1720s manual of arms, 1810 manual, 1870s manual and to the 1943 manual except for some new equipment added to the frog and bayonet—like a slip ring/socket and barrel ring, nomenclature that had changed over the years due to technological advancements but stab, recover, parry lunge are all the same…

During the F+I War the shoulder strap would hold the plug bayonet and a hanger (short enlisted man's sword) and light companies like Rogers may have carried a tomahawk there instead of the hanger...

Go back to the Napoleonic War and the introduction of the Baker Rifle, which was quite short so they took an old short sword (hanger) and put a slotted sleeve on the quillion and voila a bayonet that was a short sword as well and brought the length to almost that of a Bessie with pig sticker attached...

It has been remarked by numerous surgeons during many different conflicts that they hardly, if ever, treated bayonet victims...Then again they only cared for those they could save, usually gun shot or sabre wounds and based their findings on that as they didn't do body retrieval and noting the method of demise!
 
#22 ·
The body has bands of collagen that go around the limbs and trunk of the body. If you have ever cut yourself across a limb in a perpendicular fashion, you will notice that the wound closes itself due to the way in which the collagen bands act. Cutting along the bands does not sever many collagen fibers and the tension of the bands on either side naturally closes the wound. Collagen is like an elastic band. If you have ever been cut up the limb, you will have noticed the wound open up into a gaping, bleeding mess. That is because when the large number of collagen bands were cut across, the skin acted like a cut elastic and contracted, pulling the edges of the wound away from each other.

It is no accident that the triangular bayonett was used. With 3 blades you were always guaranteed a gaping wound based on the physiology and mechanics of the human body, no matter how you thrust it into someone.

Paul.
 
#23 ·
It is no accident that the triangular bayonet was used. With 3 blades you were always guaranteed a gaping wound based on the physiology and mechanics of the human body, no matter how you thrust it into someone.
You realize that the blade in question was/is smaller in diameter then a modern day wooden HB pencil...

During the Renaissance the style of swordplay shifted from the slash and cut to the parry and thrust so wide double edged blades became passe and thinner blades with just the points tapered to a pin point where the rage...Very easy to make from round/square stock...They also figured that the triangular blade was an improvement over both but were still talking very small diameters...Seldom where the blades sharpened other then the very point...

Try some of these books for a Historical Perspective:
Burton….. Richard F.….. The Book Of The Sword
Coe….. Michael D.….. Swords And Hilt Weapons
Ffoulkes….. Charles….. Sword, Lance And Bayonet
Hutton….. Alfred….. The Sword And The Centuries
Lovino….. G. A.….. Traite d'Escrime
Norman, A. & Vesey, B.….. Small Swords And Military Blades
Valentine….. Eric….. Rapiers
 
#24 ·
SeekHer, I understand that they were very small diameter, however the principle still stands. With 3 cutting edges you were always going to do damage in a vertical fashion, more so than a 2 edge or single edge blade. Any upward or downward movement of the rifle would allow the bayonet to cut even if it isn't very sharp seeing that you had the momentum of 2 men acting against a thin edge.

Paul.
 
#25 ·
Very understandable...just a a four bladed arrowhead has a greater cutting surface then a two or three blade does...

The problem is that the blades were not sharpened only the tip and that was tapered to a point and not sharpened per se...When the blade entered the body there was no up, down or sideways movement of the bayonet, to destroy organs and open up a larger bleeding hole, just a twist to prevent it "sticking" and that's it...

The British used that type of blade right up to WW2 on the SMLE rifles as well as long knife blades that were sharpened...had to do with cost--forge out a full blade or take a piece of round stock, grind a point, solder on a ring and finished...
 
#27 ·
The first Geneva Conv. had general supplemented by treaties from 1899 . Concerning asphyxiating and expanding bullets. source pbs.org Bill Moyers Journal. & spj.com Soc. of Pro. Jour. A similar knife was used in the movie The Big Red One staring Lee Marvin .And one on the Dirty Harry movies (filmed at Alcatraz) .
 
#29 ·
Wiki:
Geneva Convention of 1864
The First Geneva Convention, for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded in Armies in the Field, is one of four treaties of the Geneva Conventions. It defines “the basis on which rest the rules of international law for the protection of the victims of armed conflicts.”[1] It was first adopted in 1864, but was significantly updated in 1906, 1929, and 1949. It is inextricably linked to the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is both the instigator for the inception and enforcer of the articles in these conventions.

Hague Convention of 1899
The First Peace Conference was held from May 18 and signed on July 29, 1899, and entered into force on September 4, 1900. The Hague Convention of 1899 consisted of four main sections and three additional declarations (the final main section is for some reason identical to the first additional declaration):

I - Pacific Settlement of International Disputes
II - Laws and Customs of War on Land
III - Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of Principles of Geneva Convention of 1864
IV - Prohibiting Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration I - On the Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration II - On the Use of Projectiles the Object of Which is the Diffusion of Asphyxiating or Deleterious Gases
Declaration III - On the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body
The main effect of the Convention was to ban the use of certain types of modern technology in war: bombing from the air, chemical warfare, and hollow point bullets. The Convention also set up the Permanent Court of Arbitration.


Gil Hibben has designed many knives for movies including three bladed ones--not what is being discussed here...There where three edged knives made during the Civil War but they had a very shallow top maybe 50/20/20 degrees and had a width of around two inches (or more) and the hilt...

Two, three or four edges don't matter squat if they aren't sharpened--it's like stabbing someone with a screwdriver or an ice pick, there is puncture wounds but there isn't cutting or more technically called slicing...With sufficient velocity and force a 2x4 will go through you and cause massive trauma but it isn't sliced but torn--ripped asunder so to speak!...
 
#30 ·
I absolutely heard the same information from a sword expert on Storage Wars with Allen and Ton. The expert said they were banned because they were inhumane and three edged wounds could never heal. The strangest thing happened about all this. I saw that program about two weeks ago and today at my cousins house (we're both avid scroungers and share a lot of info) and he goes and gets this three edged Japanese really early knife. So I tell him I'll do the research and I google 3 edge Japanese Dagger and I swear this is the site I got and now I'm a commenter on your forum! You never know where a day is going to take you! This is my first reply. So, hello everyone. Does anyone know the best place for me to find out about seriously antique 3 edged japanese daggers?
 
#33 ·
They were not illegal under the Hague Convention...They were no harder (or easier) to sew up then a two inch wide flat bayonet thrust or a sword cut.

Is your knife double edged with a raised section on one side or is it like an isosceles or equilateral triangle?

Can you post pictures of it?

If the first it is called a Moroha: a double bladed tantō type that has a diamond-shaped cross-section. The blade tapers to a point and contains a shinogi (blade ridge) that runs to the point.

If it's a true triangle then it could probably be a broken British bayonet that got converted to a knife since the British were responsible for training the Japanese Navy in the late 1800s to early 1900s and the Japanese incorporated a lot of the British gear for their own army.

Check out the pictures at:
Blade Gallery

Worthpoint

Look in the sticky section above under American etc. Knife makers and on the second last page my post for Japanese sword makers and dealers...Any of the antique dealers could probably help you.

Hope this helps and welcome to the forum.
 
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